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Funny coincidence, I have a blog post lined up on this topic. Good example of science done right. Sophia University is one of the few holistic, transpersonal psychology programs around. Although it doesn't sound like they really grasp the full depth possible with nonduality yet. it goes way beyond brain states. The reason mystics mysticize nonduality is because they reach such extraordinary depths that the scientific realist paradigm becomes utterly untenable.

2015 A.H. Almaan (A. Hameed Ali), a spiritual teacher and author, integral theorist, mystic (not that titles matter this much but hey... Maybe he can be a metasource for research?+ he is the guy on the right side of the screen). He facilitated 5 scientists to make a conversation on how close science is to understanding consciousness. 4 theories on consciouness were suggested. As far as I got it, they are quite confident about being close to understanding. There is chance of course that this is just nice comedy... But do you think it´s possible to make a mathematical theory about consciouness which will enrich its understanding for the nondualist, spiritual practisioner? Or do you think this is eternal tapping in the dark? Will this, even if it succeeds have something more to offer rather than direct experience? (bald guy from the left): Stuart Hameroff, anesthiologist and professor at University of Arizona, known for his studies of consciouness (next to Stuart): Julia Mossbridge, cognitive neuroscientist (first from the left next to Stuart): Donald Hoffman, cognitive scientist and author (guy in the middle): Henry Stapp, mathematical physicist, known for his work on quantum mechanics (bearded guy on the right next to Henry): Chris Fields, interdisciplinary information scientist (physics and cognitive neuroscience)

You can awaken from it permanently. To awaken from a dream is to realize it isn't real. But life will still continue because life isn't separate from nothingness. Nonduality includes duality. Of course that body/mind could kill itself or perhaps "ascend". There are many reports of people ascending. So that may be an option. But don't get ahead of yourself. Catch a glimpse of what you are first.

I was thinking man. These questions. They are implicitly nondualistic. By saying "IS there a triality" I actally refer to BEING. It's like you can't even imagine something outside of singularity/nonduality. It's impossible. Like this: is there something outside of being or not being? IS refers to being once again. Maybe once we'll have a good taste of true infinity we'll be able to have a look outside of it.

@Flow With Life Now that's Big nonduality. Good work, grasshopper!

LOL! I was just trying to have a little fun with you. My serious advice would be: Shadow work, uncovering your childhood wovs, check out other sources, many great self-help/nonduality teachers out there.. No reason to be attached to one teacher, there are plenty of others that can help you with advices that can make you Enlightened, Actualized, Happy, Rich or whatever you desire. Contemplating WHY are you feeling panickly about it.

@Markus It's rather funny because he takes these very nuanced, rather academic philosophical positions which are very easy to misinterpret and lead to huge amounts of controversy, which then gives him an opportunity to use his hyper-rational mental abilities to navigate around all the controversy and dispel much of the misunderstanding, but this takes hours of back-and-forth, and polarizes many people -- who either love him or hate him. Controversy is certainly an effective marketing strategy. Not sure if it's efficient at raising consciousness in those people who get polarized. For example, I'm not sure he's helping rid the world of Islamic fanaticism by bashing Islam and theism all the time. But that's just my opinion. He's certainly free to philosophize away. Personally, I think the best way to rid the world of fanaticism of all stripes is by discouraging people from debate, instead having them turn inward to deeply examine their desires to debate, rationalize, and take positions. By taking strong polemical positions and engaging in constant criticism, one subconsciously communicates the values which fuel fanaticism and sectarianism all over the world. In other words, in the face of hate, apply love, not more hate. My teaching style used to be more polarizing. I've been learning my lesson though and have had to move away from that style as my own consciousness rises. I don't see polarized teachings as being sustainable at the highest levels of consciousness. Because they are fundamentally dualistc. It's sorta sad for me to give up my old polarizing style. My ego likes it. It's way more fun to bash people. Oh well... another blow to the old ego I guess. The trick with highly conscious people, is that they are SO FUCKING LOVING, you cannot believe it when you see it. From the surface it appears fake or impossible. Because of that, many ordinary folks get turned off by it because it feels too sappy and lovey-dovey. It's like high consciousness has to dumb itself down to resonate with low consciousness. But high consciousness also doesn't care to dumb itself down. Which results in nonduality remaining a niche field. The paradox of consciousness: you have to possess consciousness to want to pursue consciousness.

Watch the video I recently posted in this forum about Psychedelics vs Meditation Research. The guy literally posts a graph comparing happiness levels of people having sex vs experiencing nonduality states. Hint: nonduality is far better than any sex you've ever had. If it wasn't, why would we even be talking about it? This would be a forum about porn instead.

@Leo Gura Exactly. Which is why i think its unfair to disregard him as your typical scientist. I think he has all the information and the view of the world similar to nonduality, i just dont think he's made the connection yet.

@AxelK Certainly he's not your typical scientist or rationalist. He's sort of an enigma to me. I don't fully understand why he defends rationalism so much if he's experienced nonduality. Of course the depth of the experience is very important. But also, I bet it's possible to be an enlightened rationalist crusader. Just strikes me as an odd situation. Then again, people can be very diverse creatures. And it's risky psycho-analyzing other people so this is all just speculation.

I am back - sorry. I feel bad for being confusing so I'm gonna make up for it by dumping more of my thinkings onto you! hope this is fun and not annoying do not mind if I sound like I am telling you what to do. I trust that you understand that words are just words, and the understanding you discover as inspired by your experiences is what matters. [1] of course it could be a hindrance. under-thinking is a hindrance too. finding the balance, is what will work best. there is no definite point of balance. a certain point past too much under thinking has enough of an effect to transcend your current level of consiousness on a meaningful path, and a certain point below over-thinking sees the same thing. and all points in between are where the balance is good. but the thing is - the lowest conscious person still develops over time. the highest-conscious person still develops over time. if you feel you need to take a step back from where you are, why not give it a try. [2] but what is thinking? [3] these are one and the same - the illusion of the physical world is the same illusion which contains the mind. I admit the physical world appears with more consistency - and it is true that manipulating it appears different than manipulating our thoughts. if a car hits us we get injured. but how that injury is real to us is the same as how our thoughts are real to us. So how this applies to your questions here - overthinking is nothing more than spending time with reality. It is less pragmatic - but it is just as real. In a way - the world around us is a higher level than our self - so if we want to think about the world, we can go out and manipulate it and see what happens - and we can ponder what has happened and reflect upon in curiously. these are one and the same - just the manifestation appears to differ. [4] I am in my life attempting to find out how to be more directly productive in my surroundings, and spend less time in fantasy lol. I daydream, I think and then pace and think and think and think. I watch a youtube and then watch another and another, or I post in forums until 5 hours have passed. So I am learning how to work in the real world. I guess it just takes practice and time. I guess - if you want to think so much that it takes all your day, find out how to be a mystic in a monastery with a minimal lifestyle to maximize thinking time. Or find a way to turn your time spent thinking into a sellable asset in the market. but if you don't want either of those - then work to learn how to negotiate with yourself, so that you think when it's time to think and act when it's time to act. I am going for that last option hehe.. [5] I recently heard Leo say in a video that when he speaks of the authentic self.. he isn't talking about identity. I forget what exactly he said. so I am going to explain as best I can what I currently understand of the topic. That existence is nondual infinity. and the authentic self is that nondual infinity. In our manifestation, we are finite - so we never become authentic, because authenticity is.. well, infinity. or nothingness. or God or nonduality or whatever you wanna call it. I am that, you are that, the stone is that, our belly button is that. whatever we do in the material world is That, and in this way it is OK however we choose our actions - and reconciling the meaninglessness of infinity with our existence is more or less what pursuit of the authentic self is. As we work to figure it out, we naturally become more at peace, and in being at peace we find more satisfaction in life. Right now you think a lot. work with that - we can't make a big change all at once - it's hard to quit cold turkey. Leo said in a video or maybe in a post in the "aske leo anything" thread, that he still has the monkey mind now all the time as much as before - the difference is that he responds to it on a more enlightened level. (I am paraphrasing) So to work with your thinking and searching for authenticity: experiment, and be mindful, and work to follow where intuition leads you. [6] I have constantly thought my whole life. the only time I am not thinking is when I am asleep. For me my thoughts have naturally taken the form of direct sensation, rather than sound or words... it is like I thought with touch... and so my thoughts were always very much abstract, which meant a lot of information is represented at any moment. this doesn't mean I'm more intelligent or anything I don't think - tho I have had people comment on how it seemed I spend a lot of time thinking, which well, is true, heh. the point is - I definitely "over" think. it got to a point three years ago - where I was thinking so much it was creating a massive anxiety feedback loop, and I crashed and lost everything and hid in my parent's attic doing nothing because I was too afraid to go outside. the defense mechanism? that was - listening to 3-7 streams of music at once, playing 10-hour repeat songs on youtube on multiple tabs. and playing a lot of videogames. I needed to escape my thoughts. maybe thinking is an escape method - no, it is an escape method. but - well, thinking is existence. when we touch the wall, we think it - and that is how we know it exists. so if you feel that you are thinking too much - then work to think less. but what I can say is - when thinking is too much, it will prevent you from eating enough in a day, it will prevent you from cleaning your space, and it will prevent you from succeeding at work. and there's a good chance you will be trying to escape your thoughts. if you have not reached that point - then it is your decision - think less and do more, or do less and think more. I am sure that it is going to work out fine either way - because all we need to get through this world is make sure we can eat enough to keep us alive til the end, and maintain our immediate environment so that we are safe in it. if that requires thinking - then think. if that requires doing - than do. identify your long term goals, and short term goals, they aren't always the same and often compete. we work to find out how to balance those goals - but as long as we get through properly fed and secure in our environment, then we've done a good job of it. it's our choices that determine how that journey manifests. what is authentic for us is going to happen - and searching for authenticity is only working on our self to pursue what we believe is good for us. and If you are here - then you've identified that what is good for you is self actualization. and.. suddenly I feel as if I've said nothing in this post too. hopefully that is only an illusion. well, it is, lol... sorry lol! You said you enjoy to think, so if you mean the same thing that I mean when I say I enjoy to think, and have bothered to read all the things I said, then you appreciated it. and oh! I appreciated creating these words too. OK! now I can walk away from this moment feeling satisfied with what I've shared

That's a tricky assumption, stemming from the paradigm that self and other are real solid entities. Consider this: if everything in one (as nonduality suggests), there is no separation between you and other beings. In which case, it would be possible to have a direct consciousness of what another being is. Turns out it is possible to have direct consciousness of another. Because another is you. And you're both nothing. To accomplish this feat, you'd have to have an enlightenment experience on the question of: What is another? Enlightenment has many interesting facets. More than people first suspect.

@rush It depends on what you expect from meditation. I focus on therapeutic effects of meditation, and that is what I get from it. I got a few slight tastes of nonduality and acceptance but I see that only as icing on the cake. Through meditation you pump up your mindfulness skills, you become more present. If there is anything to track progress by, this would be it. Look for them outside of meditation though, not during sessions.

“If you cannot weep with a person who is crying, there is no Kensho”. Zen Deviltry is something that is happening in the West when we just take the techniques of the Easter traditions and don’t take any philosophy and cultural baggage. In a sense is good because some of the philosophies are outdated and unnecessary but, it can lead to problems. In Mount Hiei, the monks were fighting each other because they built different sects. Notice that, even they were enlightened, they were behaving like animals! People nowadays are thinking enlightenment as a simple thing as though it is just one insight and as soon as you have that insight, it is the end of seeking, illusion, personal development. They think that after enlightenment, there is no more need to improve yourself, learn and live life. They believe that after enlightenment there are no more values, principles, pursue of mastery, no more goals, no more purpose, no more career, no more business, relationships, pursue of excellence, education, hard work, thinking, planning, strategizing and no more caring. But this is a very simplistic notion of Enlightenment. Notice that if it was that simple, there would not be many spiritual schools. In reality, there are TONS of schools, teachings, teachers and so on. The various masters have: - Strong values and principles - High Passion - Commitment to mastery - Commitment to excellence - Very hard working - Make plans and goals - They are not lazy - They conduct business - They engage in the world - They care about society - They care about ecology - They care about relationships - They are very caring individuals - They are very educated and read a lot ENLIGHTENMENT SHOULD MAKE YOU MORE CARING, NOT LESS! If it’s not this way, you are making it in a Zen Devil way. The solution to this is to be face to face with a great master. Nonduality is not learned, IS EMBODIED. It is not about sitting in your cushion and having a brilliant insight, it is a lot more than just that. There is distinction: Small Nonduality vs Big Nonduality. People get cocky when they know about Nonduality and compare it with duality. But this creates a high level duality! REAL ENLIGHTEMENT IS A FULL INTEGRATION BETWEEN THE DUAL AND THE NONDUAL! Big Nonduality is humble. It understands and integrates duality and Nonduality both. Big Nonduality is so nondual that even the mundane stuff is embraced. He sees that, even though the good and the evil are not existentially true, they exist and they are part of the world. It is also generous. They don’t criticize. They see a place for therapy, working on your career, working on your relationships, on the bad habits. Small Nonduality will say that everything is illusion and you should go straight forward for Enlightenment. But you must realize that not all people are ready for Enlightenment and it may take them a decade to work themselves up to that. BIG NONDUALITY IS INCLUSIVE! Zen Devil: One who has the experience of Satori but has done no scholar study of literature. It is the one who sits and meditate all day but doesn’t expand his knowledge of the world. Wild Fox Zen: It is one who only reads the books and knows the theory of Enlightenment but doesn’t have any insights. You want a Middle Way. If you want to master Enlightenment, you will need to invest more than 10.000 hours to really master and embody it. If not, how do you explain the hard-core training and disciplines of the different traditions. There is a lot more than just an Enlightenment experience: - There are different depth of Enlightenment and there is a whole spectrum and variety of enlightenment experiences - Develop love and compassion - Emotional Mastery - Cultivation of Unconditional Love - Relationships: You need to learn how to have enlightenment relationships with people - Eliminating bad habits - Education: There is a lot to learn about the world - Being a good citizen and contributing to society - Having an ethical career that is contributing to raising its levels of consciousness - Transcending your culture - Taking care of your physical body - Develop good character - Concern for the environment - You can develop spiritual powers - Understanding (relating your insights with business, relationships, the environment, society, evolution, physics, biology, physiology). “Post-enlightenment practice meant finally ceasing to be preoccupied with your own personal condition and attainment and the devote yourself and your practice to helping and teaching others. Finally, you realize that Enlightenment is a matter of endless practice and compassionate functioning and not something that occurs one and for all in one great moment on the cushion”. Emotional traumas and self-development is not accomplished by enlightenment only. Being a good person is separate from enlightenment. A COMMITMENT TO NONDUALITY IS TO EMBODY IT. Reason is a function of the mind and existence is beyond that. The fact is that there are not reasons but VALUES AND PRINCIPLES STILL MATTER (this is the paradox of self-development). Existentially, there are no reasons but DON’T FORGET ABOUT THE PRACTICAL LEVEL where it does matter how you act, think and behave. True goodness comes spontaneously. The true question is how you are going to decide how to play the game, and karma still exist (your actions have consequences). YOU ARE NOT TRULY ENLIGHTENMENT UNTIL YOU CAN HAVE COMPASSION FOR THE SUFFERING OF OTHER. You may not suffer anymore but there are many people that are going to still suffer (how about your mom, that is going to still be suffering because she isn’t enlightened, or the guy in the street that is dying because have nothing to eat). THE THING IS THAT OTHERS ARE YOU! IT IS ALL YOU!!! You should work a lot while you are working towards enlightenment. The psychological work that you are doing right now (taking care of your finances, your relationships, career and life purpose, rearranging your values) are going to do be really useful when you get enlightenment. EVEN MORE, ENLIGHTENMENT CAN TAKE THIS TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

There are landmines everywhere in this work. If one teaches: "Only pursue enlightenment, drop everything else." Many people will get lost, because many people are not ready for that. If one teaches: "Heal yourself. Then pursue enlightenment." Many people will get lost, because most people will get distracted and never put in the necessary focus to attain enlightenment. If one teaches: "You are already enlightened." Many people will get lost, because they will not do any work. If one teaches: "You are not enlightened. Go pursue enlightenment." Many people will get lost in seeking. No teaching is fool-proof. And the most advanced teachings especially so. All personal development work is filled with traps. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. If there were, it probably would have been found by now and there wouldn't be as much diversity as we find within the fields of personal and spiritual development. When one ignores this context, it leads to even more traps, because then one can take anyone who misuses a teaching as evidence of the teaching's failure. This is how nonduality wars get started. I see one person misuse your teaching and then condemn your teaching for it. When in fact, it's virtually impossible not to misuse these teachings, because the nature of the thing being taught is so tricky. So there needs to be latitude in your assessment of teachings, otherwise you will become an ideologue. And that is just one more landmine in this work. Try to see this whole issue from a holistic, meta-perspective: there are billions of unconscious people in the world, and most of them are not going to successfully navigate any teaching. So expect some casualties, delusion, failure, and collateral damage as people strive to become conscious. How else could it be? The only solution to unconsciousness is consciousness. All teachings and techniques are ultimately mechanical. It's the student that really has to do the heavy lifting. He must supply the consciousness.

@Visionary You've been misunderstanding whatever you've been reading. No serious teaching tells you to drop the desire for enlightenment before you've completed it. You drop it only AT AN ADVANCED STAGE, once you've attained many breakthroughs. You're not capable of being in a state of being! That's why enlightenment is necessary. You guys are way too worried about spiritual seeking. You should be much more worried about your lack of seeking. 99% of you aren't seeking nearly hard enough. Not even close! Your efforts are so weak you got more odds of getting hit by lightening than getting deeply enlightened. The reason I say things like, "Enlightenment takes 10,000 hours" is so you understand the depth of the work and effort involved. Most people undershoot rather than overshoot. If you're using very direct methods like self-observation or mindfulness meditation, seeking is a non-issue. You can seek that way for your whole life and it will yield fruit. The problem of seeking only arises when you're seeking in totally wrong areas. Like if you think that joining your local church study group will get you enlightened. That would be a problem. Or if you think merely reading self-help books will make you enlightened. That would lead to the seeking trap. You can seek that way for 100 years and not get anywhere. But self-observation will not lead to a seeking trap, because it is the heart of the work. It is a fact that you don't know what you are yet, so you must invest time looking. The looking will not magically happen for you. If you build a deep conceptual understanding of enlightenment, you will be able to navigate all the traps. And to do that, I recommend studying a lot of diverse teachings. If you only study one teaching, I can pretty much bet that you'll fall into one trap or another. If you study 50 different nonduality teachings, you'll see all the traps and potential Zen devilries. Of course studying alone will not make you enlightened. It's only the prelude to the core work. And if you're tired of studying and what to dig deep into the core work, discipline yourself to sit down and execute the process outlined in this guide. It's extremely direct. No bullshit. In fact, the problem is, it's so direct you will come up with every excuse imaginable to avoid doing it. The first 6 months are a bitch.

@Prabhaker @WaveInTheOcean I think what we can gather is that there is a kind of cycling effect. At one moment, you are consciousness (nonduality) and at another you are conscious (duality) as an organism. And the goal of spiritual practice is to be both together. This goes beyond just enlightenment, which is simply a realization of your true nature. I like when Sadhguru spoke of Kriya yoga, he made it clear that the path of Kriya is for much more than just enlightenment.

I ask this because it suddenly occurred to me that I remember nothing of my deep sleep. When I am in the state of pure consciousness called sleep, though it is infinitely peaceful, I return and there is no memory: not even a passing memory as would be expected of a dream. So I ask, is pure consciousness blind to itself; does it need The Witness in the form of the organism to observe itself? In other words, does nonduality need duality to know itself?

@Samuel Garcia How can your heart beat even though you clearly aren't controlling it? This is a non-issue. Maybe you aren't constant. People are just telling you things they've discovered about reality. Maybe you could be variable. Maybe you're a hairy rainbow walrus. But if you look deeper, you'll discover that is not the case. Why? You'll only know when you get there. The present moment is literally you. But what exactly is presence? If you knew what it was, you'd already be enlightened. Nonduality means you are everything and nothing. The ultimate paradox. You are the sensations, but they are not all that you are. The essence of you is Shiva: void. Sensations are Shakti. Reality is the union and dance of Shiva Shakti. Shakti needs Shiva like paint needs a blank canvas. Your mission in self-observation work is to locate Shiva. This is hard to do because you've become addicted to seeing Shakti. Shakti is easy to see because its colorful. Shiva is colorless, so much harder to find. Keep looking. The mind cannot ever grasp this! The only way for mind to access Shiva is if mind surrenders. If you are strong-minded, this may take a while. It would be much easier if you were weak-minded.

@Motus Debate does not serve an educational or consciousness-raising purpose. It serves an ideological, egoic purpose. Debate is about winning, not about actually understanding the other perspective. If you observe yourself very carefully as you're debating, you will feel this. Your very desire to have a debate is already the problem. A debate has nothing to do with discovering truth. The truth is never uncovered in a debate. All debate does is drive people deeper into their webs of belief, creating distraction from doing the inner work. There is no need to convince anyone of your version of nonduality. Whatever your favorite method of nonduality is, just pursue it. Preaching it would be an ego-trap. What I do is a form of teaching. I teach because that is my purpose. I generally do not debate. Sometimes I "rant", but even that is tongue-in-cheek and mostly done for entertainment purposes. If I do a rant, I usually understand the other perspective. I am not in ideological opposition to it. If your purpose is also to teach -- great! -- then do that without debating anyone. You are not teaching through debate, you're just making people ideological. Debate also quickly devolves into ad hominem attacks, name-calling, trolling, and simply creates a virulent toxic atmosphere. The level of consciousness of people who like to debate is usually so low that they aren't able to engage in true open dialogue. They don't care about understanding or fairness, they only care how to defend their position at any cost. Of course, that's exactly how ego functions. What better way for ego to maintain itself than to engage in a debate about how other people's spiritual paths are wrong? Notice that when you go to a spiritual retreat, ashram, or Zen monastery, the atmosphere is never one of: "Hey guys, let's debate these teachings and poke holes in everything. Wouldn't it be beneficial to debunk some of this stuff?" If you did that, you would get kicked out. Not because the teacher is afraid that you will somehow dethrone him or undermine the truth of his teaching, but because you're behaving unconsciously and infecting others with that unconsciousness, defeating the entire purpose of that gathering. If you make your approach one of quietly seeking to understand every perspective, you will come out 100x stronger than if you make your approach one of loudly undermining all perspectives you disagree with. To be clear: engaging in thoughtful, constructive, open dialogue is NOT debate. And it is allowed here.

The non-duality war I personally think its very healthy if there is a part on the forum where people actually truly can debate discuss it, but not mengled with the articles of certain paths. Because it can get them to think critically. (it requires however another set up in the forum). I do strongly disagree that all paths are as good as others. Of course, someone who is further sees that the 8 folded path, that purifies the desires is best among paths, because someone is thrown in himself. But what makes something like this, or such a claim toxic? Because there is certainly a point being made by Leo. Keep in mind the 8 folded path, we will come back on that in a min. So what is then so toxic? I will show you guys an example of what is toxic, what is a perfect example of trying to "debunk" something in an ill way (not to forget, debunking is healthy, I promote it). Here is an example shown that is actually thrown, and already explained in my comment what is so wrong about it. Dear xxxx, You miss again the point, xxxx. So I will again explain it to you. The dhammapada, is well studied by me, and its examples are good to share. I live up to those examples, secluded from unwholesome deeds, sense indulgence, concentrated on Awareness and I am awakened to my true duty in accordance with my True Self. However, you seem to miss the point again. Your aim should not be me, but the subject that is presented. If you find it misinformation, support this with decent evidence. Refer to what is pseudo-wisdom in what I shared here as teachings. If someone lives up to it, and shares examples that enlighten the way, then surely this is wise to do. For those who follow it up, and look into it, surely, this is wise to do as well. However, if you do not come up with decent arguments, surely any intelligent being reading this, will surely understand that what you say is hollow, your own misunderstanding that is situated in either your own passions or ignorance. And should read the Dhammapada yourself and put it into action. I do not see a single article coming from you, that actually challenges what I shared here as teachings. There for I conclude because of not taking a stand to actually debunk it with decent arguments, your post as being filled with ramblings and pseudo-wisdom, egotism and can be there for classified as foolish, per swaying people to agree on things that lack evidence and has therefor nothing to do with wisdom, being intelligent and being situated in the fruit of wholesomeness. If you disagree, and are not willing to put any evidence in what is wrong with what I am teaching here, and why it should be otherwise, and how it should be otherwise, then surely if you can't keep your mouth shut, sit still, putting your attention on yourself and being concentrated on Awareness, and instead just keep mumbling around here in this forum referring to me how I am situated in spiritual egotism, you clearly miss your aim, and are yourself trying to astray by your pseudo-wisdom. For you can also just not read what I write, put me on ignore, and leave it at rest. But you do not do this, you come to me, again and again. How can that be of a good intent? Surely you didn't miss that. ................................................................................................... (So for all haters of Leo (or anyone else that is hated) that do not have come yet with decent arguments and are not willing to present them, but are just attacking, this message above is for you as well). The same counts for all that have something to say about Leo... If you don't have decent arguments, then leave it be. You must be ready to give arguments when asked for them. However I do point out towards Leo, see, they throw at me as well, and I have seen very very nasty things being said towards Leo, without a decent argument, or not willing to later point things out more, clearly with decent arguments, (e.g youtube) and I have seen nasty things being thrown at me. So whats toxic? That which makes it toxic, is that people do not come with decent arguments, and when asked, still don't. I would definitely would like to see a place where people can criticize peoples work, but with decent arguments (I stand widely open to be debunked very hard, but one must be coming with arguments, that are verifiable, and if I ever write something, people can just say to me: Please let us debate this, I wanna put this to the test with decent arguments, and I shall never say, I am not interested to support my claims with decent arguments with a clear mark of refraining from sophism). Preventing this healthy critical thinking in a forum, surely will lead people to think, oh Leo is going to discern who is non dual and who is not, and this is however imposing a non-dual by not non-dual which is toxic if not supported by good, solid arguments. (I am willing to support this further if Leo wants this, I stand wide open to make myself useful here) I don't believe Leo meant that as his intention however. Remember the claim about the 8 folded path? I dare to speak out that the 8 folded path is the best among paths. And I am willing to put decent arguments on that. Nothing toxic about that. However, I do am afraid that many, just can't put up decent arguments that are refrained from sophism, to actually truly demonstrate why its wrong even if they would wish. Some examples from other works, is just not enough to debunk something, although a valid point can be made. I am not supporting psychedelics, but I am betting that Leo would not say to me: Motus, you are crazy, you didn't gave me solid reasons why not, you are toxic. I always come with arguments, and if not, one can always ask for them, and I give them. And I find this healthy, because in this way I can warn for his reputation, (its what a good wise friend would do)! Create an article about what truly is non-dual according to you, and stand open for an argument back, letting readers decide for themselves. Thats key. And I would suggest that the administrator can use this information for improvement into all directions. (useful information can come out). Saying: Those non-dual, will never debunk something or debate it and correct a wrong view. This is not true. An enlightened being, or someone with a great understanding or someone rooted in Dharma, is only here to debunk with powerful sublime arguments. Debunking is for example what you do as well Leo, its what you should do. Its refraining from such duty that is dual, being attached. I wonder how many people got debunked by Leo in a positive manner, and I well support many of the points he made. (And I maybe should give those more credit here). I would rather say, if someone makes a probable toxic claim, they should be able to start an article on a forum, and challenge this. IF they do not respond to that, not even when asked in private to join it, or do join, but keep being toxic, not using arguments, just sophism to persway people and make war, now that is a reason to ban. I don't see a reason to ban, because he said; take the path I took, your path is wrong Leo. Or, Leo is not the right teacher. Motus is a bad teacher, his teachings are rubbish. (taking this personally is of course based on a wrong view, there for asking for arguments, which if one is not willing to put, and keeps going on with sophism and per swaying, then you can state: Wrong intent, false speech, wrong act, wrong view, wrong place of attention and concentration) (= Reason to ban?) Why no banning straight away, what do I think? Because, such a claim can be supported by arguments and should at some point, and the reader should ask for them to kindly explain why, if the writer did come up with decent arguments that can be checked to be valid, by his own core with a clear mark of refraining from sophism, he should be reasonable. Well now, the one answering should put decent arguments, and refraining from sophism. Otherwise, yes, if one just claims widely, without arguments, just throwing and throwing, is indeed making toxic claims due to not willing to support this claim with decent arguments. Deciding what is a good argument, valid argument etc, yes, one must be more educated, and that is another problem I come across. Therefor if someone is trying to debunk me, I will be more critical at pointing out rather why its sophism, and why it should be avoided. And I will do this as well for Leo, or anyone, if I see sophism, for the sake of education. I would ask nicely, that those who get a decent argument thrown at them, learn from it. Get along, harmonize, learn. I would ask nicely, that those who do not have a decent argument or are not be willing to put one when asked, just shut your mouth, and sit with it. Go watch some video's of Leo, or read some of the teachings I posted here. I really would like to see a reply from Leo, how he looks at the points I make here, as he is the administrator. And really would like to hear your thoughts about this article. (Remember, again, don't attack me, for theres no me, or a Leo, just learn to focus on my points that I make and come with arguments that are in line with the subject presented). (I posted it in the same forum, for practical reasons)

When I first started this sub-forum, my biggest concern was that people would use it as a platform to engage in religious debate. Thankfully that's never happened. However, what I failed to foresee was the same dynamic manifesting in a more subtle form: people engaging in nondual debate. This is even more regrettable, because it goes directly against what nonduality is about and such folks should know better. There has been a recent trend of people stirring up nonduality debate or embarking on "discrediting" campaigns. It's this toxic tendency to criticize and nitpick nondual teachings because they happen to differ from how you think nonduality ought to be done or taught. As if there is one or two paths that everyone should take, and all others are delusional. This is a classic trap. Traditionally, most spiritual paths -- as part of their marketing strategy -- highlight their upsides while conveniently never mentioning their own downsides. Then they criticize all the other paths by only highlighting their downsides while never mentioning their upsides. This creates a false apples-and-oranges comparison. It's functional purpose is to recruit new adherents. It's basically a dishonest advertising campaign. The problem with this approach is that it breeds intolerance and sectarianism. It creates in-fighting and distraction rather than contributing positively to the discussion. It's intellectually uncharitable and ultimately makes the entire field of spirituality/nonduality look hypocritical to outsiders. If you are so nondual, or so self-realized, why are you wasting so much of your time fighting others? This is such a rookie mistake. The reality is that nonduality is a difficult thing to teach, no matter by what method. Traps are numerous NO MATTER WHICH PATH YOU TAKE. There is no such thing as the perfect path. There is no such thing as a path with no downsides or traps or potential for delusion. Any path you take can be misused. Any teaching you hear can be misused. Any teaching can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Any teaching can be nitpicked and criticized into ill-repute if one so desires. You can easily write a massive diatribe about every single spiritual teacher and spiritual path ever devised by man. And you would be half-right. But all of this is just an ideology game. It's a fundamental failure to understand the other person. It's also rather annoying to moderate and creates idle controversy where none really exists. Not only does it turn good people against each other, it's false and ignorant. Just because you've had a rude awakening -- just because you realized that reality is illusory -- doesn't mean you get to come on here and trash the value of conceptual work, or traditional self-help, or other nondual methods. Just because one method didn't resonant with you, doesn't mean you get to crap all over other people's methods. Again, this is such a rookie mistake we shouldn't even be having this discussion. The work that we're doing here is very nuanced. It's very easy to misunderstand. It's very easy to demonize. It's very easy to abuse by its nature. All advanced work is this way. And our work here goes WAY beyond enlightenment. I am counting on you to be a nuanced and understanding student. If you disagree with this philosophy and think that all there is worth doing in life is enlightenment, that's your opinion -- and you're entitled to have it -- but you have no business being here. Go spend your time doing something productive that you believe in, rather than debating, "debunking", and criticizing -- with flagrant disregard for intellectual charity -- the hard work of others. Anyone engaging in nondual debate like: "Method X is all bullshit. It's delusional. Teacher Y doesn't know what the hell enlightenment is. Just follow the method that worked for me." will be banned. There is nothing nondual about such behavior. It's juvenile and driven by a lack of understanding of the deeper aspects of this work. The very act of making such posts is already evidence of one's low level of development. Highly conscious people do NOT behave in this way. Here's a very simple rule of thumb: you will NEVER see highly-conscious and self-realized masters debating, criticizing, nitpicking, or engaging in "debunking" campaigns. Because all of that is egoic, dualistic, ideological nonsense. If they disagree with a teaching, they simply avoid it. They don't start a crusade to fight against it. They understand that different people resonant with different paths and teachings. They understand that everyone needs to find their own path. Remember that guiding people to nonduality is an inherently challenging thing. It's one of the most challenging teaching scenarios. If you ever get the opportunity to teach hundreds or thousands of people about enlightenment, you'll gain a new appreciation for how many of them will deeply misunderstand you and use your well-intentioned teaching for evil. Have respect and compassion for that. When assessing the value of a teaching, observe the principle of intellectual charity, and seek to understand the communication rather than how best to discredit it. Discrediting is easy, understanding is difficult. Division is easy, integration is difficult. Hostility is easy, compassion is difficult. To be a part of this community, you certainly don't need to agree with me on everything. I've always encouraged you to think for yourself and never follow blindly. But you do need to agree with some of my core values like: intellectual honesty, tolerance, compassion, holism, and openmindedness. You must show a basic level of tolerance for diversity and you also need to adhere to the principle of intellectual charity when discussing the pros and cons of various nondual paths. If you don't agree with such principles, that's fine, you just have no business posting on this forum. Please help me keep this community in line with this high standard of discourse, so it doesn't devolve into the kind of low-consciousness finger-pointing that we see all across the web. And none of this should be taken to mean: "So Leo is always right?" No! Leo is just a guy on the web who shares ideas with you. Be very intelligent in how you understand and apply these nuanced and tricky ideas. And none of this should be taken to mean: "Leo is saying that all teachings are identical and equally valid." No! That's obviously not the case. Some teachings are downright absurd. Use of good discernment is ALWAYS necessary. But even if a teaching is absurd, you're still not entitled to troll it or crusade against it. Your actions always speak louder than your words. If you choose to engage in debate or crusading, that shows us exactly what your level of development is, no matter how many enlightenments you may think you've had.

It also includes those who confuse their first enlightenment as the end of the road. And those who behave like cocky fools after enlightenment, thinking they've figured everything out. And those who use enlightenment to bash duality, not realizing that nonduality includes duality. One's behaviors speaks louder than one's enlightenments.

@Extreme Z7 No, more like psycho-spiritual purification or chakra cleansing. As your "energy-body" is purified, energy blockages are unblocked and you become more spiritually attuned. Very much like a Jedi gets attuned to The Force. Your mind and body become clear, untainted by low-consciousness cravings and fears. You're permeated by a thirst for consciousness, love, and the Infinite. Materialistic matters become irrelevant in your calculations in the same way that as an adult you no longer crave kids toys. You acquire a kind of glow or radiance. Most people have no idea how much emotional baggage they have locked up in their entire body. The energy flow is all twisted up from a lifetime of low-consciousness living, repressed emotions, and repressed passions. Ego takes a heavy toll on the body. When you're stuck in your head, you're not aware that you're also very much stuck in your body. There is no hard separation between mind/body/spirit. It's one interrelated system. Fixing this whole mess is another one of the very important aspects of spiritualy/nonduality that Zen Devils neglect. When it comes to your happiness and well-being, clearing this up is probably gonna have a bigger impact than enlightenment.

Justification is an ego game. Nothing is ever wrong. Reality IS Love at the most existential level. Hate is just a low consciousness manifestation of love. This is where the distinction between small nonduality and BIG nonduality is really helpful. Nonduality includes all of duality within it. It's NOT a rejection of duality. It's an embrace of Absolute Infinity, without any cherry-picking. Duality is what happens when you fail to embrace BIG nonduality. You guys would REALLY benefit from reading the entire The Law of One series and paying very close attention what Ra is teaching you about how intelligent infinity works. It's really hard to explain this to someone who hasn't experienced Divine Love. It's indiscriminate. Go have a direct experience of Divine Love. Then all this will make perfect sense. This is where a psychedelic might be helpful. Do some MDMA or mushrooms or 5-meo until you experience more love than your head can handle.