The importance of Suffering

[Water by the River]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

The absolute freedom , the total glory of existence, total happiness without stain. perfect, clear, infinitely deep. hallelujah is the word

"4:30 Happiness is not in the movie":

 

Selling "The happiness is in fact a quality of the screen" by the River

 

 

....

!

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Water by the River God can appreciate bliss much more by first imposing limitations on itself- ultimately leading to its own suffering through that limitation trying to survive in a world beyond its limitation.   Through its need for control and pleasure - to forget its limitations.    Yes, only after the suffering brought about by its own hand, can it then shower itself with Infinite Bliss and Love.  For that is awakening.  One must go to sleep to awaken.

God is not someone who does things and then finds himself again, but rather absolute intelligence taking forms, evolving in complexity and movement. It is not hidden to play but because it is the smartest way to create. Intelligence does not care about suffering, it only does what intelligence does: as intelligent as possible. It is absolute intelligence, and every molecule in the cosmos is in the most intelligent place possible. If that place is suffering, there will be suffering.

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

4:30 Happiness is not in the movie":

The movie is the screen, just that the meaning of the movie is irrelevant, just the substance matters. The substance is always here, just beneath the surface of meaning

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, koops said:

Life situation can reduce your suffering more than enlightenment.

uhum.

ok.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_in_the_21st_century

So lets look up all the people who had everything that mainstream-society sells as summum-bonum.... In other words, to be precise: No hamsterwheel-project left to distract themselves from their self-contraction/ego ... money, fame, friends, lovers, success, n+1, all tried and found to be useless/unsatifying in the end, and not interested or smart enough to be motivated to investigate ET n+1 et al.), and therefor got depressed and killed themselves?

Seems like a loooong of pretty "succesful" "people" to to me...

 

Selling a-path-to-transcendence-instead-of-the-hamsterwheel-de-jour by the River

[Breakingthewall]

The intelligence of reality is flowing. from absolute emptiness creates forms of unimaginable perfection that move, combine with each other, dance in a dance of unthinkable magnitude. Its beauty is the beauty of God, of the intelligence that emerges from the infinite abyss. One of its manifestations is organic life, which evolves to become self-aware and open to total intelligence in a new dimension. This evolution from bacteria to technological civilization is a manifestation of total intelligence, and in its process an infinite number of structures that the total mind creates are combined. One of these ingredients is suffering, and it is obvious that its purpose is evolutionary thrust.  

Human suffering is the push of a birth, from which a new dimension is born. Just another movement in the dance

Edited March 10 by Breakingthewall

[UnbornTao]

@Water by the River Enlightenment and transcending suffering are different pursuits.

Trying to dissolve suffering is still a form of suffering.

[Breakingthewall]

39 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

@Water by the River Enlightenment and transcending suffering are different pursuits.

Trying to dissolve suffering is still a form of suffering.

You no dissolve suffering, you are one with your substance, then there is happiness. If there is happiness, there is not suffering 

[ZenSwift]

I realize that suffering is a great tool to open up the mind.

Especially towards further evolution and holistic integration.

Edited March 11 by ZenSwift

[Water by the River]

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

@Water by the River Enlightenment and transcending suffering are different pursuits.

Trying to dissolve suffering is still a form of suffering.

How do you know? Do you speak from personal experience? (sorry, heard that one somewhere before ).

Or is it deduction from cases you think are enlightened and who still suffer? There is a path beyond Enlightenment to stabilize this freedom from suffering, but the tools to do that are given for the first time WITH Enlightenment (peak to plateau to permanent). And most "Enlighenments" are just Awakenings with remnants of separate-self hijacking the newfound Nonduality.

And yet, the amount of bliss and release from the suffering of the self-contraction that resting in True Being (or Awakened infinite nondual timeless Awareness) brings, once it has become accessible, is astonishing. And that bliss and force of True Being has the potential to stabilize that in plateau to permanent.

These statements of yours are in contradiction to roughly 2 millenia+ testaments of beings who have realized their True Being.

Suffering is the "rubber band" that makes separate-selves return to their True Being. Hamster-wheels until the original condition is restored. Suffering is what guarantees that no being is lost in the illusion of separation forever. The longer one chases states/experiences/whatever, the longer the hamster-wheels spin.

One could even say that the separate-self IS suffering/resistance/contraction (Adi Da called the ego self-contraction). Because one of its main essences IS the suffering/contraction/localization/resistance to what is. Suffering IS the ego IS the separation/separate-self.

I can tell you from my own experience that it is felt exactly as that (self-contraction), which becomes obvious at some point on the path, as contractions in the head and body. When these contractions/solidities (mainly in the head at the end in my case) fully dissolve and drop, the boundless field of consciousness becomes infinite and truly nondual. It is such a relaxation of tension/contration/localization/constant-background-contraction/"baseline-suffering". It feels like vast-spaciousness, nondual, limitless, so free and open. Bliss itself.

And honestly, every being not living from this obviously and inevitably suffers, is in the claws of the merciless self-contraction. This becomes then totally clear once one has experienced this dropping of the self-contraction, which then creates compassion. Which stabilizes (paradoxically) Awakening and Nonduality even further.

That is the beginning of boundless vast Non-Duality (not yet Enlightenment), in which Awakened nondual Awareness ripens (Roger Thisdell stage 4 to stage 5) towards Enlightenment, or the full dropping of anything separate, truly becoming Infinite Being. Here the bliss starts flowing, and the path starts showing itself to itself. Fueled by the bliss of True Being, which already starts giving a powerful attractor point starting here. 

Selling the bliss of vast nondual limitless spaciousness at the River

 

PS: And for the "trying" to dissolve suffering. Yes, trying doesn't work. The dissolving of suffering/self-contraction is the case once it happens. Until then, while trying, there is suffering.

 

[Water by the River]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You no dissolve suffering, you are one with your substance, then there is happiness. If there is happiness, there is not suffering 

yes, that is a good summary. Substance = True Being.

[Breakingthewall]

50 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

yes, that is a good summary. Substance = True Being.

yes different ways of expressing the same thing.

But, don't you agree in part with Leo gura that there are degrees? Let's see, the fact of being human means in the vast majority of cases getting lost in the psyche. Let's say that you have unraveled this enigma and the true being manifests in you constantly and clearly. Even so, there will always be human mud, limitation.

As you said in another post, reality understands itself, but to what extent being human? The fact of being human is a reality, and the transparency that this allows is limited. Yes, you can be one with the true self all the time, be happy and have banished mental suffering (not 100%), but never be completely free from the envelope, from the human structure. If so, there will be levels of clarity. By being human I mean, since for reality, the true being or whatever you want to call it, free of form, there is only one level, the total level.

[Water by the River]

10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

yes different ways of expressing the same thing.

But, don't you agree in part with Leo gura that there are degrees? Let's see, the fact of being human means in the vast majority of cases getting lost in the psyche. Let's say that you have unraveled this enigma and the true being manifests in you constantly and clearly. Even so, there will always be human mud, limitation.

As you said in another post, reality understands itself, but to what extent being human? The fact of being human is a reality, and the transparency that this allows is limited. Yes, you can be one with the true self all the time, be happy and have banished mental suffering (not 100%), but never be completely free from the envelope, from the human structure. If so, there will be levels of clarity. By being human I mean, since for reality, the true being or whatever you want to call it, free of form, there is only one level, the total level.

To such a "degree" that before the deep identity shift it regularly sucks (pardon the french), and after the shift it is play & celebreation & love & compassion & fun & & bit of drama, but nothing really dead-serious. (Can) hurt you more (increased clarity), bothers you less.

That is the potential of that shift when it starts permeating ones Being. Nothing outside of ones True Being. Forever. Never having been, never possibly will be. Only as illusion. And it is always available then, even if distraction appears temporarily. By just "reaching out into" the Infinite. And it evolves from peak to plateau to permanent (in expression, not in "access" or knowing absolutely what is true).

Look at her:

https://www.instagram.com/thatbeyondduality/

That is how it feels. That is the bliss of True Being.

One is not (only) a human, one has a human. And a whole world within ones Infinite Being. When you drive your car, you are looking out from it. Same as looking out from the body. Are you (only) your car when driving? Same with the body.

Never let anyone pushing his/her own agenda tell you otherwise what every beings (and yours) true potential really is.

Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

31 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

One is not (only) a human, one has a human. And a whole world within ones Infinite Being

One has a human but same time is a human. What I was asking you was not that but your opinion on the degrees of realization and understanding being an human, or having an human if you prefer 

It's obvious that being a human, or having a human, there is always veil . Leaving aside the issue of mental suffering, let's say that that plane has been left behind, the true substance of reality is constantly transparent. You are happy , medal and diploma (it's a great step, jokes aside). Even so, it is obvious how the structure of being human allows for a limited vision of what reality is. You can capture its quality but it will always be mixed with the human processing structure in part. The game is to identify that and try to perceive it in the cleanest way possible.

Edited March 11 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

One has a human but same time is a human. What I was asking you was not that but your opinion on the degrees of realization and understanding being an human, or having an human if you prefer 

Before Enlightenment: Stages. Gradual development of Awakened nondual Awareness. If one hasn't had Enlightenment: looks like stages/degrees forever. Incomprehensible how there could be no longer stages/degrees. Basically, it looks like Awakening n+1, forever.

After Enlightenment: Definitive shift, no more stages, nowhere to go (!). Only more content & manifestation. And ET can also be enlightened (or not), but it is the same Realization, maybe with a different surface expression and more or less understanding of the forms of manifestation/realms/dimensions/mechanisms. But that is just more manifestation/form/insight about the mechanics of the dream. ET has the same True Being. There is only one. One without a second.

This is btw. a very good indicator (further stages/degrees or not) to know if Enlightenment/Realization happened, or if one just thinks one knows what Enlightenment is, and judges from that what is above & below that. Another nice trap in the maze, with courtesy of Maya. 

When Enlightenment has happened, one never could ask oneself "Is it that?". It is totally clear beyond any possible doubt. If that question "Is that it? Is that final? Is there more?" arises, it hasn't happened.

Rodents  Selling Water by the River

 

Edited March 11 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

31 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

looks like stages/degrees forever. Incomprehensible how there could be no longer stages/degrees. Basically, it looks like Awakening n+1, forever.

There are degrees of veil. You perceive your true nature differently sitting in meditation than being chased by a horde of psychopaths. Between those points are infinite degrees. You are human and you can't scape of that. You weren't enlightened before, then you could stop being enlightened in a given moment, but you will easily be again when the circumstances are normal. That implies degrees 

34 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

When Enlightenment has happened, one never could ask oneself "Is it that?". It is totally clear beyond any possible doubt

Yes sure, but in a given moment it could be veiled again. For example Jesus got sink in the psyche and far from his true nature when he started to think about the next days party

51 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

But that is just more manifestation/form/insight about the mechanics of the dream

The word dream is a mistake imo, because implies the possibility or being without a dream. 

Btw, I'm not trying to argue , I'm trying to talk about the topic of enlightenment without trying the típicas: I'm enlightened and you don't. Is it possible? I think it would be interesting to remove all the mystery and the bullshits about this topic, enlightenment is not a competition, we all have an ego and this make everything a mess 

[Water by the River]

@Breakingthewall The only reason I emphasize the final character of the shift called Enlightenment is to avoid sending seekers into the endless Awakening N+1 hamster-wheel. Because that causes suffering.

If anyone wants to go wave-surfing ever higher waves/Awakenings instead of dropping into the ocean & being the ocean, or believe that Enlightenment is not possible: It is a free country, and Maya smiles all the time...

 

 

37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Btw, I'm not trying to argue , I'm trying to talk about the topic of enlightenment without trying the típicas: I'm enlightened and you don't. Is it possible? I think it would be interesting to remove all the mystery and the bullshits about this topic, enlightenment is not a competition, we all have an ego and this make everything a mess 

Sure it is possible, then yours truly does the Tony Parsons move: There is no one here on this side who is enlightened. Then, hopefully nobody gets challenged too much. Which is pretty assured, because actually there is nobody really on the other side, just an arising appearance illusion of that being the case 

Selling Nobody is at the River selling no Water to anybody.

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

 

I am trying to talk about the levels of understanding of manifested reality, which is the expression of what you call the true self. completely forgetting any testimony of ancient or past masters, only one's own vision of reality, which has many degrees of depth.

For example, many enlightened people say that reality is God's game. They can be absolutely wrong despite being enlightened, because the nature of enlightenment is not understanding but opening to your true nature. Anyone can be enlightened and not very insightful or intelligent. I am trying to speak without evasion, little lies to seem interesting, without the need to not show the slightest doubt, etc. all that shit that the enlightened masters have always shown and have been copying each other. because in addition to being enlightened they were human and full of shit. But if you prefer the mystery, it's your choice 

[Water by the River]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C4GdEwkuWCe/?hl=de&img_index=1

[Bazooka Jesus]

 

[Water by the River]