Summarizing the spiritual versus science paradigm

[StarStruck]

Science paradigm = first seeing, then believing

Spiritual paradigm = first believing and then seeing

 

 

What do you think?

[Carl-Richard]

Science involves forming a hypothesis that you believe is true and then testing it.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Ishanga]

2 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Science paradigm = first seeing, then believing

Spiritual paradigm = first believing and then seeing

 

 

What do you think?

No Belief is involved in a Authentic Spiritual Path or Paradigm. Belief means you are unwilling to admit You do not Know! One of the first steps in Spirituality is admitting I do not KNOW anything, then from that developing a deep desire to just Know what is Reality, what is Truth, that puts you on the path (Pain of Ignorance), then You find a method or way to get there for it to be a personal Experience for You.  Belief puts you further away from Truth, and what the Spiritual path is meant to do for You...

Edited December 28, 2023 by Ishanga

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

then You find a method or way to get there for it to be a personal Experience for You.

You have to believe that the method is able to take you to the outcome that you believe you want.

[StarStruck]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You have to believe that the method is able to take you to the outcome that you believe you want.

True, there is only belief.

 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Science involves forming a hypothesis you believe is true and then testing it.

That is what I'm saying: hypotheses is a belief, that they test through looking at reality.

Edited December 28, 2023 by StarStruck

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, StarStruck said:

That is what I'm saying: hypotheses is a belief, that they test through looking at reality.

That is not what you were saying. You said science doesn't start with a belief, only ends with it. I'm saying it always starts with a belief.

Even in so-called exploratory research where you do an investigation and you don't have a clear hypothesis, there are many beliefs involved in shaping the investigation.

[StarStruck]

@Carl-Richard in wrong science you are right. But there is a right way of doing science. 

[Carl-Richard]

30 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

@Carl-Richard in wrong science you are right. But there is a right way of doing science. 

Can you explain what that is?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Ishanga]

57 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You have to believe that the method is able to take you to the outcome that you believe you want.

No, You try the method to see if it actually works. First there has to be an Awareness that something is off, then one has to search for a method to make a change, you try the method if it is working for you in your experience then change is alive and transformation is on its way...no belief at all is involved, just ways and methods to use and experiment with for change/tranformation to happen on the Spiritual path...plus we have 1000 of years of history to use as proof, Yoga is over 50,000 yrs old, if it didn't work it wouldn't be here still available today...its just a matter of Willingness to try and curiosity to search and strive for a more Aware and Empowered life...

Edited December 28, 2023 by Ishanga

[gettoefl]

6 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Science paradigm = first seeing, then believing

Spiritual paradigm = first believing and then seeing

 

 

What do you think?

this above is what spiritual folks say to dismiss science

the scientist says, only if i see something do i believe in its reality

the spiritualist counters, you need to believe first, then reality opens up

so the latter is saying spirituality is superior to science, belief is necessary in your toolkit

how traditions like ACIM put it is

perception can heal projection

your inward beliefs are projected outwards and these form the world you see

for example if you feel poor, you will see a poor world all around and if you feel rich, an abundant world greets you on your travels

what you believe is what you see and in this projection you have no control or choice

so what to do? as it says above fix your perception to heal your projection

there isn't poverty all around, that is just what the news is filling you with, trust the nows and see with your own eyes what's around you

in this way, when you have fixed your eye sight, then what you see is now what you believe

you have come full circle and completed the work you came here to do by making heaven of earth

which is what it was all along

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by gettoefl

[StarStruck]

@gettoefl ACIM ?

[tuku747]

Science and Spirituality truly are the same at the core, in fact, thats exactly how the pursuit of Science started out; as a form of Alchemy, the pursuit of Spirit. The most impactful scientists throughout history were Alchemists, and they viewed their study of the world as the study of God's Creation, an ongoing communion with the divine.One expression may be thought to be more left-brained or right-brained, but we have designed the human body with electrical polarities for a good reason. Without the balance of the masculine and feminine in the pursuit of knowledge/wisdom, we are in darkness. Moving forward, the hardcore scientists who will pave the way for humanity will also be the new-age, woo-woo spiritualists, who stayed true to their heart throughout all their scientific explorations, because for them, Science has always been a profound Source of Spirituality.

Edited December 28, 2023 by tuku747

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, StarStruck said:

@gettoefl ACIM ?

a course in miracles

[tuku747]

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, Ishanga said:

No, You try the method to see if it actually works. First there has to be an Awareness that something is off, then one has to search for a method to make a change, you try the method if it is working for you in your experience then change is alive and transformation is on its way...no belief at all is involved, just ways and methods to use and experiment with for change/tranformation to happen on the Spiritual path...plus we have 1000 of years of history to use as proof, Yoga is over 50,000 yrs old, if it didn't work it wouldn't be here still available today...its just a matter of Willingness to try and curiosity to search and strive for a more Aware and Empowered life...

I'm not saying belief is a bad thing. It's just an honest description of what it is. As a beginner on the path, you come to believe that there is such a thing as enlightenment (which at this point is only an idea in your mind, spurred on by an intuition or some conceptual knowledge suggesting that it might be a thing), and you may believe that there are methods that can take you there (some people don't), and you keep trying the methods despite not experiencing enlightenment as a fact (you put your faith in them; you believe in the possibility of enlightenment despite not having a direct experience of it). So of course there is a lot of belief involved, but also intuition and conceptual knowledge, which serve as hints, but your intuition and conceptual knowledge are not direct experience.

Beliefs are not incompatible with spirituality. Your beliefs about enlightenment are guided by things like your intuition and facts like the history of yoga.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Ishanga]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm not saying belief is a bad thing. It's just an honest description of what it is. As a beginner on the path, you come to believe that there is such a thing as enlightenment (which at this point is only an idea in your mind, spurred on by an intuition or some conceptual knowledge suggesting that it might be a thing), and you may believe that there are methods that can take you there (some people don't), and you keep trying the methods despite not experiencing enlightenment as a fact (you put your faith in them; you believe in the possibility of enlightenment despite not having a direct experience of it). So of course there is a lot of belief involved, but also intuition and conceptual knowledge, which serve as hints, but your intuition or conceptual knowledge are not direct experience.

Beliefs are not incompatible with spirituality. Your beliefs about enlightenment are guided by things like your intuition and facts like the history of yoga.

Belief's are why the world is the way it is today, why wars happen (its one person's belief vs. another person's belief), why there is still poverty for a massive amount of ppl while a rare few hold all the wealth, and why suffering is still here today when we are living in the greatest age of technology and information sharing ever...How many varying belief's are there in this world? About 8+ billion. so I would say belief is a pretty bad thing. 

When it comes to spirituality yes we in the beginning get all our information reading about it or watching videos, so its all intellectual sooner or later you will form ideas about it all, these are how belief's come about, but in the end its when you get past all of this intellectual stuff, stop reading about it, watching it, and get into the real work of it, using methods that can give you real results and personal experience that you see belief means very little once you have a taste of reality of sorts.  Its best not too think about Enligthenment or heft goals like this, this is like starting a businesss and thinking You will be be a Billionaire soon, it doesn't work like that. Small steps first, become Peaceful, maintain that state all the time no matter what is happening, not as a thought process but as a natural flowering, then go from there...

Edited December 28, 2023 by Ishanga

[Ishanga]

@Carl-Richard Your reality is but a story or belief for me, My reality is but a story or belief for you, this is the limitation of logic and/or communicating on forums like this, its strictly intellectual in nature, entertainment on many levels too, we in reality are talking around Spirituality/Enlightenment/Awakening, not really about it or what it really is, only the Subjective experience will give you that:)

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

@gettoefl ACIM ?

A Course In Miracle. 

Believing is seeing.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

Belief's are why the world is the way it is today, why wars happen (its one person's belief vs. another person's belief), why there is still poverty for a massive amount of ppl while a rare few hold all the wealth, and why suffering is still here today when we are living in the greatest age of technology and information sharing ever...How many varying belief's are there in this world? About 8+ billion. so I would say belief is a pretty bad thing. 

Then all humans are bad, which is fine to believe

 

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

When it comes to spirituality yes we in the beginning get all our information reading about it or watching videos, so its all intellectual sooner or later you will form ideas about it all, these are how belief's come about, but in the end its when you get past all of this intellectual stuff, stop reading about it, watching it, and get into the real work of it, using methods that can give you real results and personal experience that you see belief means very little once you have a taste of reality of sorts.  Its best not too think about Enligthenment or heft goals like this, this is like starting a businesss and thinking You will be be a Billionaire soon, it doesn't work like that. Small steps first, become Peaceful, maintain that state all the time no matter what is happening, not as a thought process but as a natural flowering, then go from there...

I understand that enlightenment is a recognition of something that exists beyond all beliefs. But still, enlightened people have beliefs. They just see them for what they are; beliefs. The main danger lies in making beliefs into something they are not; to conflate belief with reality.

Beliefs, assumptions, whatever you want to call them, are necessary for maintaining your existence as a human being. Sometimes you need to form a belief about something or assume something based on little information, because your physical existence is limited and you don't have access to all the information in the universe, so you need to make shortcuts in order to survive. Unless you've left your physical body, beliefs are required for existing.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

@Carl-Richard Your reality is but a story or belief for me, My reality is but a story or belief for you, this is the limitation of logic and/or communicating on forums like this, its strictly intellectual in nature, entertainment on many levels too, we in reality are talking around Spirituality/Enlightenment/Awakening, not really about it or what it really is, only the Subjective experience will give you that:)

This is inevitable. Like knowledge, communication is imperfect. We use words differently, we talk differently, we think differently. Still, there is a way around the differences. In the words of Stephen Hawking: "All we need to do is make sure we keep talking".

Edited December 28, 2023 by Carl-Richard