Why don't all attractive women get with men with high social status or great game?

[Emotionalmosquito]

3 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

In the move Agent Cody Banks, the premise is the CIA recruits this teenager (Cody) to seduce and infiltrate into the life of a hot, blonde headed Stacy because her father is some evil, scientific mastermind threatening national security.

But he’s so awkward and nerdy that none of the agency’s best human attraction experts or playboys were able to teach him how to rizz up a girl. 

 

[Emotionalmosquito]

1 minute ago, Optimized Life said:

You were broke and depressed and attracted her? 
How hot was she 
Was she above a 6/10 ? If so that's pretty cool tbh

He said it’s because he still had a solid foundation from many years of experience of being in relationships. So it didn’t affect his social skills much 

[Israfil]

21 hours ago, Raze said:

No it doesn’t, it comes from a mindset of being disappointed something you’re doing isn’t working. If you want to make more sales for your business but are struggling, and I tell you to do a cold sale technique, and you get frustrated it’s not working, does this mean you are acting entitled to sales?

Let’s say he follows your advice and gets a high conscious goal and becomes a better person, and he still doesn’t get results, when he complains about that you will just turn around and say he’s acting entitled. It’s a blatant deflection.

Let's go with your sales analogy: If you try to do cold approach with absolutely nothing in mind except fucking someone, it'd be equivalent to having a terrible product that you push onto people so you can grift their money. And this mindset is so prevalent that girls smell people that have it from miles away. Trust me. I've been there, I've had this mindset. I have way more success now than when I was cold approaching every girl that crossed my path.

If he follows my advice and it doesn't work, I'd say I was wrong. I have no interest in keeping an illusion just because I was the one who created it. That's the difference between honest people and people who create a framework to essentialize the world and create fake stories to justify that view. The better I serve my purpose, the more abundance in every sense of the word comes into my life, including relationships. Every people that I know that I consider to have a high consciousness has good relationships. It's almost like if you see beyond your own selfish needs and perspective, other people start to get closer to you. Crazy right?

21 hours ago, Raze said:

You simply lack experience as you haven’t witnessed how many successful guys struggle with women and how many unsuccessful guys do great.

Quote

We can look at studies that correlate different success metrics with relationship satisfaction. I doubt it is a negative correlation. 

21 hours ago, Raze said:

It’s not pseudo science, it’s basic logic. Yes the guys who got women were the ones who could protect them. But that was in a completely different environment than today. Many women themselves admit they are attracted to arrogant or toxic men, why? One reason why is because such traits actually show survival value, in the environment we evolved for. In the modern day things like wealth, loyalty, values are more important, but that’s socially conditioned, not on a genetic basis.

Once again, I live in reality. There is consistent evidence that socialization is the main predictor of what people see as attractive. Just search "bad boy myth" on Google, and you'll see that women rank men who exhibit non-toxic traits. Furthermore, you are misinterpreting the argument. I once again urge you to look at the correlation between success and relationship satisfaction. With arranged marriages or not, being sociable and competent will always increase your odds of having more fulfilling relationships.

You can cope as much as you want for not being where you want to be. There are real societal problems that alienate people, but people always on women or feminism, instead of how much we have to work and the death of common spaces where socialization can happen. I work to change this paradigm, but since I cannot alone change the whole of society, I also take the responsibility of developing myself to increase my odds of success. It is a way more empowering worldview.

[Israfil]

16 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

Absolutely fucking brilliantly stated, my friend! You just more efficiently said in one paragraph what I’ve typed essays trying to explain. 

In this very real scenario that plays out all the time in real life, you cannot by any stretch of logic fully blame the guy, not even mostly blame him. If girls in your social circle are rejecting you exclusively based on the fact you’ve been rejected by others in that circle already. That’s an issue of herd mentality, not the guy being a low status loser.

He pulled this out of his ass. I can create the scenario where I go out with one of the friends, the other four get jealous and I go out with the rest of them.

I've seen this happen too, so which version is more real? Forget these hypotheticals, man. Experience life directly.

16 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

This is fine when it comes to men who’re legitimate threats, not unfortunate guys at their last resort to find a girlfriend. It also doesn’t take into account how most people especially nowadays are not having sex to have babies, they’re doing it for pleasure. In fact, I’d say most people today are actively trying to avoid pregnancy.

Behind the scenes these women with overprotective fathers are getting drilled by all types of different guys except the ones who need the most. Pretty sure a psychotic criminal is a better person to protect ur daughter from than an inexperienced nerd. 

Thats why I fully support this trend of fathers abandoning their families early on in their daughters’ lives. It’s just one less cock block to deal with and makes the women more likely to crave that attention from men they never got from him. 

These overprotective douchebag dads are the scummiest hypocrites I can think of. They themselves were that very same laser focused on pussy horn dogs back when they were younger that they’re now trying to deny other men now that they have a daughter.

That all powerful sex thirst they’re trying to protect their daughters from is exactly what they can thank for getting them a daughter in the first place.

It make me so livid I chuckle with joy when their daughters end up getting played by fuck boys and having their hearts shattered into a million pieces over and over and over until they’ve spent their prime years and all their pair bonding mechanism on playboys to the point where now they can’t find a high quality man to settle down with because they’re all chasing the super hot twenty year olds and all that’s left over is guys like us, which they do not want. It’s quite comical.

This is one of the most disgusting things I've ever read in this forum. For as long as you think of women like this, you'll be denied of their attention. Thank god for that, by the way.

 

[Israfil]

1 hour ago, Optimized Life said:

You were broke and depressed and attracted her? 
How hot was she 
Was she above a 6/10 ? If so that's pretty cool tbh

She was my first goth gf. hahahahhaha

I loved her really much. We even lived together for some time. When we had done what we had to do in each other's path, we grew apart. But it was a very nice developing experience for both of us. 

[Israfil]

56 minutes ago, Optimized Life said:

 

yeah i guess you could be in an amazing mood with a good job and tons of energy, and be a complete social retard who pisses people off. 

I still think mood is really important especially at the club. But for day game you can probably get away with lower vibe a lot more. 

 

I was depressed, but I knew how to handle my own depression without placing too much emotional labor on others. And being broke only meant we could go out less, but I eventually bounced back financially.

In the moment I saw her, I knew we had something to live together. My intuition doesn't lie to me. I just naturally grew closer to her as we went out, and suddenly we were dating.   

[Raze]

15 minutes ago, Israfil said:

He pulled this out of his ass. I can create the scenario where I go out with one of the friends, the other four get jealous and I go out with the rest of them.

I've seen this happen too, so which version is more real? Forget these hypotheticals, man. Experience life directly.

How does that dispute my point? I never said social circle can’t result in successes. My point is telling guys “don’t approach women, just get a social circle” is a misleading answer, it takes a huge amount of effort for limited returns due to limitations of social groups.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Raze

[Raze]

44 minutes ago, Israfil said:

Let's go with your sales analogy: If you try to do cold approach with absolutely nothing in mind except fucking someone, it'd be equivalent to having a terrible product that you push onto people so you can grift their money. And this mindset is so prevalent that girls smell people that have it from miles away. Trust me. I've been there, I've had this mindset. I have way more success now than when I was cold approaching every girl that crossed my path.

If he follows my advice and it doesn't work, I'd say I was wrong. I have no interest in keeping an illusion just because I was the one who created it. That's the difference between honest people and people who create a framework to essentialize the world and create fake stories to justify that view. The better I serve my purpose, the more abundance in every sense of the word comes into my life, including relationships. Every people that I know that I consider to have a high consciousness has good relationships. It's almost like if you see beyond your own selfish needs and perspective, other people start to get closer to you. Crazy right?

We can look at studies that correlate different success metrics with relationship satisfaction. I doubt it is a negative correlation. 

Once again, I live in reality. There is consistent evidence that socialization is the main predictor of what people see as attractive. Just search "bad boy myth" on Google, and you'll see that women rank men who exhibit non-toxic traits. Furthermore, you are misinterpreting the argument. I once again urge you to look at the correlation between success and relationship satisfaction. With arranged marriages or not, being sociable and competent will always increase your odds of having more fulfilling relationships.

You can cope as much as you want for not being where you want to be. There are real societal problems that alienate people, but people always on women or feminism, instead of how much we have to work and the death of common spaces where socialization can happen. I work to change this paradigm, but since I cannot alone change the whole of society, I also take the responsibility of developing myself to increase my odds of success. It is a way more empowering worldview.

It’s funny you keep talking about how high conscious and honest you are, but every argument you make is evasive and assumes context that was never there.

1) for the cold approach point you had to insert a comparison that it’s all about sex like selling a bad product. First off that doesn’t prove your entitlement argument, a poor sales man with a bad product still isn’t innately being entitled, he’s just doing a bad job. Secondly I never said that I was suggesting cold approach inherently necessitates that. You can cold approach without being pushy for sex. By the way, if we listen to you and try to get girls by following our goals and having social circles, it’s the same thing, we are doing it for a secondary motive of getting laid. You can’t escape the pesky fact that desires exist and want to be fulfilled no matter how much you demonize it. 

2) you’re now conflating successful long term relationships with the conversation topic of attraction women and getting sex, not the same thing, in fact little of the skills carry over between them. 

3) you’re still latching onto the idea that a man’s success with women is determined by how high conscious he is and thus you can continue using it as a criticism, like just above asserting emotionalmosquito can’t get girls because he has a bad mindset. Are you sure you are being honest with this belief, and it’s just a coincidence it happens to line up with your moral paradigm and fulfill a just world fallacy for you?

Irregardless there are plenty of studies finding traits that are toxic for a long term relationship can actually make a man more attractive to women. If you really want me too I can start dropping them here, but just think about it logically-

1) if women can sniff out toxic men and only want morally good men, why do so many women complain they ended up with men who abused them, cheated on them, or just mistreated them in some way?

2) what are the base traits that make a man attractive initially to women? If you are honest you’d see they either have no correlation to morality or possibly a negative correlation. Ex. Looks, status, and location. None of that determines morality. Then we have confidence, ability to escalate, smooth with girls. These traits can be gained by experience, and men with experience are more often players, or they can even be gained by high narcissism.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Raze

[Israfil]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

How does that dispute my point? I never said social circle can’t result in successes. My point is telling guys “don’t approach women, just get a social circle” is a misleading answer, it takes a huge amount of effort for limited returns due to limitations of social groups.

My point is that creating fictional hypotheticals doesn't say anything about reality. If you were talking about your own experience, maybe it would have some validity. But the whole point is that you find excuses and create stories to not have to try. 

[SeaMonster]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:53 PM, eos_nyxia said:

Is this something you have experience with personally, or are you close with people who have had this experience personally? Or is this part of some pickup community doctrine? Otherwise, where is your bias coming from? That's what isn't clear to me and what I'm asking about.

It's part of pickup community doctrine, and frankly it's nonsense.  If you have poor social skills and poor game, it's a hell of a lot easier to practice both on women in your social circle than doing Cold Approach where you will probably be doing some variation of Mystery Method, which works very well if you're an attention-seeking narcissist like Mystery, but is an uphill climb for a lot of guys.

Back to the social circle: that's where you practice your social skills first and foremost.  If you can't even manage to make it work with a few select people who are presumably on your wavelength (whether intellectually, or have common interests or compatible personalities, etc.) then good luck going up to a complete stranger and having to jump through many more hoops to establish rapport, and attraction, and comfort, and then pull.  As far as practicing game on women in your social circle, it's a simple kind of game: you mostly ignore them and talk to the guys, until they start hitting on you (from subtly to obviously.)  So to put it in MM terms, you DHV, ignore, then wait for IOIs, then engage and run the latter part of MM.  (When I say ignore, I don't mean "completely ignore", like don't talk to them at all, but simply be polite and social but don't show romantic interest at all.)

Social circle provides comfort automatically, it provides social proof automatically -- it shortcuts many aspects of Cold Approach, all the hoops you have to jump through.  All you need to do is generate attraction, and that's easy enough if there are enough women.

Edited December 31, 2023 by SeaMonster

[Raze]

34 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

It's part of pickup community doctrine, and frankly it's nonsense.  If you have poor social skills and poor game, it's a hell of a lot easier to practice both on women in your social circle than doing Cold Approach where you will probably be doing some variation of Mystery Method, which works very well if you're an attention-seeking narcissist like Mystery, but is an uphill climb for a lot of guys.

Back to the social circle: that's where you practice your social skills first and foremost.  If you can't even manage to make it work with a few select people who are presumably on your wavelength (whether intellectually, or have common interests or compatible personalities, etc.) then good luck going up to a complete stranger and having to jump through many more hoops to establish rapport, and attraction, and comfort, and then pull.  As far as practicing game on women in your social circle, it's a simple kind of game: you mostly ignore them and talk to the guys, until they start hitting on you (from subtly to obviously.)  So to put it in MM terms, you DHV, ignore, then wait for IOIs, then engage and run the latter part of MM.  (When I say ignore, I don't mean "completely ignore", like don't talk to them at all, but simply be polite and social but don't show romantic interest at all.)

Social circle provides comfort automatically, it provides social proof automatically -- it shortcuts many aspects of Cold Approach, all the hoops you have to jump through.  All you need to do is generate attraction, and that's easy enough if there are enough women.

 

Social circle is better for social skill experience yes,

But that’s just one aspect of game. Game also requires pushing boundaries, showing intent, flirtation, and escalation.

In a social circle you have to worry about your reputation, doing these things poorly and getting blown out will have consequences it wouldn’t if it’s just some random stranger. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Raze

[Emotionalmosquito]

22 hours ago, Squeekytoy said:

On the contrary, it tells you that it's nothing new

It’s really both. It shows that it’s nothing new, but also we’re seeing a lot more of it now than ever before. You can tell just by the stats.

On 12/29/2023 at 10:40 PM, eos_nyxia said:

Yes. And there is still the risk of pregnancy with casual sex. Abortion and Plan B isn't a walk in the park, lol. If you live in the States, it's not even legal everywhere. Not wanting to have to deal with any of this for subpar sex with a rando (or even a "friend") is pretty rational IMO.

That’s the beauty of it. See, It’s not necessarily vaginal penetration sex I’m thirsting so strongly over. I’m fine without it as long as other types of sexual play is on the menu, like giving/receiving head, foreplay, kinky shit, etc. So that removes the risk of pregnancy and need for contraceptives. In theory that should make it easier for a woman to cooperate with me but obviously it won’t. 

On 12/29/2023 at 10:40 PM, eos_nyxia said:

Unfortunately, men tend to be blind (willfully or otherwise) to the predatory actions of other men.

Maybe it’s because I’m a man myself, but I’ve never noticed it to be a huge problem. If anything I’ve seen evidence of the contrary. I’ve done approaches where I’ll be talking to some girl when a random white knight will spawn into the scenario pretending to be the her family member in attempt to protect her from the perceived creep (me). A simple way to defeat this tactic is to ask him what her name is without her telling him. Then ask to reveal her ID. There’s very little chance of guessing someone’s name right. 

And in general men have a deeply wired instinct to protect women.

On 12/29/2023 at 10:40 PM, eos_nyxia said:

It does not automatically make you a safe person, and the reality is that people don't know you

Yes, but there’s inherent risk in almost everything and everyone. Everyone started out being a total stranger. The most seemingly trustworthy people can turn out to be monsters and people who seem shady at first can turn out to be amazingly good at heart. Playing the human game always entails some amount of risk, meaning we all have to take a leap of faith going into new relationships. 

Since we don’t have to worry so much about being physically overpowered by women, it may not look like we have as much at stake, but believe me we do. We have no way of knowing for sure if a girl will ruin our life with a false accusation, divorce, or enslaving us using the threat of those as leverage. Don’t underestimate the life destroying power of a false accusation or divorce.

We all face serious risks, so all we can do is feel each other out for a time being to decide if we’re comfortable. But we can’t move forward at all if we’re stuck in doom thinking.

On 12/29/2023 at 10:40 PM, eos_nyxia said:

Though I would say if you are taking joy in innocent people, like little girls, being ruined in the future because you have a chip on your shoulder with women. That IS sick. In what world is that a "good person" thing by any stretch of the imagination, even if you're not going up to women and harassing them IRL?

The dads leaving their daughters thing doesn’t have anything to do with any disdain for women. I meant that as in it’s one less cock block to deal with. It’s highly selfish of me to think that way but it makes things one step easier to win the grand prize, so I’ll take it. I think most people would be that selfish about it if they got to where I am in life.

I know bad people don’t call themselves bad, but some really are good if given the chance. You can have toxic aspects to your character but still be good overall. That chip on my shoulder with women is caused by them being so goddamn bitchy so often about being approached, and only giving up the goods to guys who don’t need it as much and/or who treat them like garbage; and several other reasons. 

I get accused of scaring off women because they can smell my frustration with them, but that frustration stems mostly from rejection along with the horrible attitude often coupled with it. Not from an intrinsic hatred for them as a whole (although admittedly it has grown more in that direction over the last few years)

If they were so good at reading vibes they should be able to see that if given the chance, I would treat them like goddesses yet also as equal humans. I would always be thoughtful of how she’s feeling, would always remember the important dates, would get her chocolates and raspberry leaf tea during that time of month,  ̷a̷n̷d̷ ̷w̷i̷p̷e̷ ̷u̷p̷ ̷t̷h̷e̷ ̷b̷l̷o̷o̷d̷ ̷w̷i̷t̷h̷ ̷m̷y̷ ̷t̷o̷n̷g̷u̷e̷ ̷

15 hours ago, Israfil said:

This is one of the most disgusting things I've ever read in this forum. For as long as you think of women like this, you'll be denied of their attention. Thank god for that, by the way.

What’s disgusting is those overprotective dads that won’t let any guys near their daughters. They’re such hypocrites because back in the day, they were that same thirsty guy they’re trying to shield their daughters from, and that’s precisely why they were able to have a daughter in the first place. They might as well set a mousetrap up their daughters’ pussies by the way they act.

Side story:

My grandpa told me a time when he was a teenager he was at one of his first girlfriends house smooching with her in her bedroom while her parents were out. Suddenly, they both heard a noise and saw a light in the driveway, they both figured it must be her dad, so he got up and shot out the back door, hopped the fence and sprinted way out into the field behind her house thinking he was being chased and about to be savagely beaten by him. Eventually he ran out of steam and turned around to discover nothing but empty field behind.  He went home. The next day the girl told him the car that pulled in the driveway was just a car turning around. 

Moral of the story is that primal fear response he had indicates that we all have an evolutionary understanding that men are brutish assholes to other men dating their daughters, justifying my reason for supporting the growing trend of dads abandoning their families. It’s so much easier without that extra challenge in the picture. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Emotionalmosquito

[eos_nyxia]

On 2023-12-30 at 1:00 PM, Raze said:

Irregardless there are plenty of studies finding traits that are toxic for a long term relationship can actually make a man more attractive to women. If you really want me too I can start dropping them here, but just think about it logically-

 

1) if women can sniff out toxic men and only want morally good men, why do so many women complain they ended up with men who abused them, cheated on them, or just mistreated them in some way?

2) what are the base traits that make a man attractive initially to women? If you are honest you’d see they either have no correlation to morality or possibly a negative correlation. Ex. Looks, status, and location. None of that determines morality. Then we have confidence, ability to escalate, smooth with girls. These traits can be gained by experience, and men with experience are more often players, or they can even be gained by high narcissism.

1. Trauma is probably the number one factor for why we attract dysfunction into our lives and it "just happens" and it just "keeps happening" over and over. This, and cultural and upbringing factors that we take for granted by default. IMO it is quite cruel to hold it against girls and women for not having a good bullshit detector at a young age, since let's be real: when you're all complaining about women, you aren't talking about women who have lived long enough to have been burnt enough to have the experience to know what to actually look for.
2. Once you get past generic filters, we don't necessarily have a lot of skills with dealing with what comes next. We get fed a bunch of bullshit as women too, you know. A lot of us have "good girl" problems too. We aren't taught much about how to deal with someone that we have some trust in already, and we tend to give more chances than are deserved to people who do not deserve it once we do trust, while yes, sometimes aggressively filtering out other people. We aren't taught about how to deal with successful manipulators, even though they work in patterns as well. We are often told that we should give these people a chance when we really shouldn't.
3. Often we don't actually learn how to hone our gut instinct and intuition very well, or we argue against it for some reason or another. It can and actually should be able to protect us, IMO.
4. Alternatively, some people are relatively sheltered (both men and women) so they have no skill with recognizing and dealing with people who take advantage of them, and sometimes people want to flirt with intrigue and "risk" on purpose.
5. Extroversion is a separate factor. It seriously can't be much of a surprise that people who are open and perpetually put themselves out there have more opportunities because they go out of their way to get them, whether they are "moral" people or not? It's the case with women as well. Even if women aren't actively approaching, men still tend to gravitate toward "shiny" women by default, whatever it is that immediately catches your eye, and have trouble noticing the rest. Like a tunnel vision. At least at first, which is where social circles tend to come more into play. For what it's worth, a lifetime of observation says that it's not just about raw physical attributes as a woman, but also how you adorn and present yourself physically, and also attitude, confidence (but not offputtingly so!), warmth and openness, receptivity, "feminine" charisma, and also being in the right place at the right time There is the everything else that goes into being an "attractive woman".
6. Y'all not meeting women who would rather go to the library or take part in some female-centric hobby like social dancing, right? I tend to be very careful about generalizing about EVERY SINGLE PERSON who goes partying and who doesn't, but do you really think a homebody feels comfortable and safe around the sorts of men you describe?    (Though it can be true that opposites attract as well.)

Edited January 1 by eos_nyxia

[Raze]

50 minutes ago, eos_nyxia said:

1. Trauma is probably the number one factor for why we attract dysfunction into our lives and it "just happens" and it just "keeps happening" over and over. This, and cultural and upbringing factors that we take for granted by default. IMO it is quite cruel to hold it against girls and women for not having a good bullshit detector at a young age, since let's be real: when you're all complaining about women, you aren't talking about women who have lived long enough to have been burnt enough to have the experience to know what to actually look for.
2. Once you get past generic filters, we don't necessarily have a lot of skills with dealing with what comes next. We get fed a bunch of bullshit as women too, you know. A lot of us have "good girl" problems too. We aren't taught much about how to deal with someone that we have some trust in already, and we tend to give more chances than are deserved to people who do not deserve it once we do trust, while yes, sometimes aggressively filtering out other people. We aren't taught about how to deal with successful manipulators, even though they work in patterns as well. We are often told that we should give these people a chance when we really shouldn't.
3. Often we don't actually learn how to hone our gut instinct and intuition very well, or we argue against it for some reason or another. It can and actually should be able to protect us, IMO.
4. Alternatively, some people are relatively sheltered (both men and women) so they have no skill with recognizing and dealing with people who take advantage of them, and sometimes people want to flirt with intrigue and "risk" on purpose.
5. Extroversion is a separate factor. It seriously can't be much of a surprise that people who are open and perpetually put themselves out there have more opportunities because they go out of their way to get them, whether they are "moral" people or not? It's the case with women as well. Even if women aren't actively approaching, men still tend to gravitate toward "shiny" women by default, whatever it is that immediately catches your eye, and have trouble noticing the rest. Like a tunnel vision. At least at first, which is where social circles tend to come more into play. For what it's worth, a lifetime of observation says that it's not just about raw physical attributes as a woman, but also how you adorn and present yourself physically, and also attitude, confidence (but not offputtingly so!), warmth and openness, receptivity, "feminine" charisma, and also being in the right place at the right time There is the everything else that goes into being an "attractive woman".
6. Y'all not meeting women who would rather go to the library or take part in some female-centric hobby like social dancing, right? I tend to be very careful about generalizing about EVERY SINGLE PERSON who goes partying and who doesn't, but do you really think a homebody feels comfortable and safe around the sorts of men you describe?    (Though it can be true that opposites attract as well.)

I’m not holding anything against women or saying all women are the same, I’m specifically responding to the claim that women only want “good” high conscious men and if you don’t attract women you must low conscious  or bad in some way, it’s not true.

Edited January 1 by Raze