How to let go of Socialism as an Idealogy?

[JTL]

@Leo Gura

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not correct. Liberalism does not want everything privatized, that would be libertarianism.

Liberalism includes a sizable welfare state. Social democracy is a form of liberalism.

Dont quite agree, social democracy came out from revisionist socialism with Eduard Bernstein leading the charge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Bernstein  I think about social democracy as the best from capitalism and socialism. 

[thenondualtankie]

Leo should do a video on socialism.

[Tanz]

The toxic version of capitalism is corporate socialism.  Fundamentally if or when we evolve, socialism combined with democracy will be the best situation.  Socialism only works if a majority of the citizens are educated and society at large minimizes ego.  Maybe in a few hundred years but consciousness can shift dramatically and we can get there within 100 years.  

 

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

On 2023-10-15 at 6:10 PM, Leo Gura said:

The more you understand human nature, the dumber socialism looks.

By reminding yourself that no matter how bad the problems under capitalism are, they would be a lot worse under socialism.

We tried socialism at least 20 times all around the world. It always failed. It wasn't for lack of effort.

   I would agree on average socialism just doesn't work without a strong capitalist economic foundation. Of course there are outliers like Chile, if America and the CIA wasn't funding the revolution movement there, it would've been interesting to see how far Chile would go on socio-economic modal. Similar to Venezuela and Cuba, although the factors of the USSR's economy collapsing and embargo by capitalists and neoliberals in America makes it uncertain how far both would have gone, after all both had capitalism first then transitioned into some socio economic framework. 

[SeaMonster]

On 10/15/2023 at 0:32 PM, Mormegil said:

From my perspective I would say I have definitely understood and maybe even integrated some of the better aspects of capitalism, such as productivity, innovation, material wealth and material satisfaction.

I think you're very confused.

You're probably talking about lavish welfare states on the Scandinavian model, but they will be the first to tell you they are not socialist.  Their economic freedom ratings are consistently pretty high.

Socialism doesn't work because it is centralized planning / wage controls/ price controls, basically, so it ruins the pricing mechanism the free market provides.

It's basically taking the normal economic activity of society and trying to make it fit some intellectual's idea of what SHOULD BE, as opposed what is.  Disaster follows predictably.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by SeaMonster

[SeaMonster]

21 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Similar to Venezuela and Cuba, although the factors of the USSR's economy collapsing and embargo by capitalists and neoliberals in America makes it uncertain how far both would have gone, after all both had capitalism first then transitioned into some socio economic framework. 

Without natural resources, The Soviet Union doesn't even get off the ground, embargo or not.  They basically had nationalized oil and gas to build out their agricultural-to-industrial transition.  

Socialism with natural resource exports works for awhile.  Without, it's just a hellscape from the get-go.

Without capitalism, there is no reason for would-be entrepreneurs to innovate as intellectual property belongs to the state.  That's basically reason #1 why socialism can't compete.

Edited October 25, 2023 by SeaMonster

[SeaMonster]

30 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Yes we tried socialism but we would be lying if we said it failed without the US intervening.

We'd be lying if we said socialism can compete with capitalism in any way, shape or form, interference or not.  It simply can't innovate like capitalism and so either has to buy or steal and copy the innovations.

Of course there would be interference because socialism is forced to steal capitalist IP.  It's not like a one-way street where poor communists are oppressed by capitalists. Read up on the history of Soviet technological espionage in the West, it starts fairly early on.

Here's what people don't understand: the US didn't even have most women in the workforce until the 1960s/70s.  Socialism was slightly ahead in incorporating women into the workforce.

Once the US had women in the workforce, the USSR was done for in a matter of two decades, it couldn't compete economically.

30 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Also don't forget that when shit hits the fan you need commuinism or something similar. Just like when covid happened and the US was ready to seize the means of production of health equipment because capitalists are too greedy.

LOL.  Spoken like a true commie.  "Means of production" didn't get us vaccines quickly, intellectual property rights did.

Edited October 25, 2023 by SeaMonster

[Danioover9000]

@SeaMonster

2 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

Without natural resources, The Soviet Union doesn't even get off the ground, embargo or not.  They basically had nationalized oil and gas to build out their agricultural-to-industrial transition.  

Socialism with natural resource exports works for awhile.  Without, it's just a hellscape from the get-go.

Without capitalism, there is no reason for would-be entrepreneurs to innovate as intellectual property belongs to the state.  That's basically reason #1 why socialism can't compete.

   I partly agree that without natural resources, or unique limitations to natural resources, geography, biosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere/climate patterns, those environmental factors can limit the potential of any nation and country. Also factoring in many developmental factors, I can partially agree that the soviet union was inevitably going to fall apart, considering the history and accounts of how it treated it's people.

   Also true to some extent, socialism with natural resources works for some time. Just look at gift economy within tribal groups, where they actually practiced communism minus the European corruption of communism. I am not saying due to gift economy we should go that direction, as gift economy stopped working when feudalism, mercantilism and eventually capitalism started out performing gift economies.

   Also true, without capitalism and neoliberalism indoctrinating this sense of competing against fellow humans, valuing competition, and hierarchy based on merits, and programming reverence for the money symbols, there wouldn't be that many small business owners, real estate dealers, and stock holders, very little business savvy pursuits if most stage orange isn't that indoctrinated by capitalism and neoliberalism. Just like without men, and without the patriarchy found in stage blue, we'd not have any societies or religions at all. Of course, to give some credit to socialism, thanks to political movements, to protests, to union workers, we have weekend offs and some holidays, even a worker can negotiate sick days off or more pay or some other agreements can be negotiated.