Palestine/Israel war - What can we do to stop this genocide?

[Hardkill]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The reason is very simple: because Israel is more developed than their neighbors, and the US supports neoliberal values rather than theocratic Islamic values.

The US is interested in doing business, not Jihad. So the US will side with those who prefer business over endless Jihad.

It's also because many Christians in America believe in the idea according to the Book of Relevation in the New Testament of their Bible that the final battle of Armageddon will one day occur in Israel. 

"The Beast moves his headquarters into the land of Israel and assembles his armies there." "It is there that his destruction will come."

Edited October 14, 2023 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

If according to the fact that their geography is totally unable to provide the palestinians the resources it needs to have their society flourish economically like Saudi Arabia or Israel, they have been stuck in like stage Purple/Red, no other country in the world has ever been interested in wanting to help the Palestinians develop even to the level of stage Blue/Orange, how will enough of the Palestinians be able to let go of their beliefs in tribal warfare with anyone who is not them? Therefore, wouldn't that all mean that the Palestinians are more than likely tragically doomed to becoming slaughtered until their entire ethnonational group becomes completely extinct because they will never be able to live in peace with anyone else outside of their ethnonational group?

It's a very dire situation at this point. Yes, they are badly cornered and there is no good solution, but the worst possible option is for them to turn to more violence.

In the end, if a people cannot embrace peace and they are very weak, they go extinct. That's how this works. Violence is a tool for the powerful, not for the weak.

The only hope now is for the international community to help Palestinians elect nonviolent leadership.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a very dire situation at this point. Yes, they are badly cornered and there is no good solution, but the worst possible option is for them to turn to more violence.

In the end, if a people cannot embrace peace and they are very weak, they go extinct. That's how this works. Violence is a tool for the powerful, not for the weak.

The only hope now is for the international community to help Palestinians elect nonviolent leadership.

God, that's truly dismaying.

This is probably going to haunt me for the rest of my life, like War in Ukraine did, like the horrifying mass shootings and gruesome murders we've had in country for many years did, like War in Iraq and Afghanistan did, like the 9/11 event did, and on and on and on and on.....

Edited October 14, 2023 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

It's not so surprising. The Japanese had to do an unconditional surrender in WW2. So did the Germans. The Palestinians are entering an unconditonal surrender situation.

Imagine what the US would have done if Japanese kept up doing terror attacks. We would have nuked more cities. That's how this works. This is not a game, this is war. Leftists don't understand what war is. They treat war like a charity.

In this case Gaza made an act of war. And now they get war. War is different than colonization or apartheid or occupation. War is a lot worse.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not so surprising. The Japanese had to do an unconditional surrender in WW2. So did the Germans. The Palestinians are entering an unconditonal surrender situation.

Imagine what the US would have done if Japanese kept up doing terror attacks. We would have nuked more cities. That's how this works. This is not a game, this is war.

That's true, but after WW2, the Japanese and the Germans had the resources and the environments to rapidly evolve their societies to that of 1st world countries.

Actually, I just thought of something. Could this war, after it ends, provide some kind of springboard for Israel to develop into a less stage Blue/Orange society and more into a kind of society that mostly stage Orange but with smaller stage Blue elements and some small amounts of stage Green elements like America? Also, could the aftermath of this war possibly influence Israel to learn from their mistakes by become more left-wing and reduce their tendency to keep encroaching upon Gaza?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

That's true, but after WW2, the Japanese and the Germans had the resources and the environments to rapidly evolve their societies to that of 1st world countries.

True, although they also had a lot of outside aid and they had to pay many reparations. And it took much time.

In 30 years Gaza could be a decent place with much help.

Quote

Actually, I just thought of something. Could this war, after it ends, provide some kind of springboard for Israel to develop into a less stage Blue and more into a stage Blue kind of society? Also, could the aftermath of this war possibly influence Israel to become more left-wing and reduce their tendency to keep encroaching upon Gaza?

I wouldn't count on that. Israel now has a lot of enemies from outside to be leery of. Israel won't be able to let its guard down for a decade to come.

This act of war will embolden their right-wing. It's like Hamas did the worst possible thing both for themselves and also for the Israeli right-wing. It was a lose-lose strategy which set everyone back. Everyone lost.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Tudo]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a very dire situation at this point. Yes, they are badly cornered and there is no good solution, but the worst possible option is for them to turn to more violence.

In the end, if a people cannot embrace peace and they are very weak, they go extinct. That's how this works. Violence is a tool for the powerful, not for the weak.

The only hope now is for the international community to help Palestinians elect nonviolent leadership.

But what about integrity? isn’t it a lack of integrity even when you are weak? Remember the example you gave in a video about integrity citing Braveheart?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Tudo

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Tudo said:

But what about integrity? isn’t it a lack of integrity even when you are weak? Remember the example you gave in a video about integrity citing Braveheart?

There is no integrity to terrorism. That's why it always fails in the end. Revenge is not a high form of integrity. You can't rape a baby with integrity.

This is why successful rights movements try to follow the principle of nonviolence, like Gandhi and MLK. If MLK turned to terrorism, blacks would still not have equal rights in the US. Blacks were oppressed worse than Palestinians, but they didn't turn to terrorism, which is what saved them. Palestinians need MLK-like leaders. Not Osama Bin Landen.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Tudo]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no integrity to terrorism. That's why it always fails in the end. Revenge is not a high form of integrity.

This is why successful rights movements try to follow the principle of nonviolence, like Gandhi and MLK. MLK turned to terrorism, blacks would still not have equal rights in the US.

Yeah, makes sense !

[Hardkill]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

True, although they also had a lot of outside aid and they had to pay many reparations.

I wouldn't count on that. Israel now has a lot of enemies from outside to be leery of. Israel won't be able to let its guard down for a decade to come.

Oh yeah that's right...

Damn. Sometimes, I feel like maybe the Jews made a mistake by deciding to have their homeland in that part of the Middle East. 

[Hardkill]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Blacks were oppressed worse than Palestinians, but they didn't turn to terrorism, which is what saved them. Palestinians need MLK-like leaders. Not Osama Bin Laden.

I didn't realize that blacks still had it worse than Palestinians even after slavery ended in the US.

[Buck Edwards]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no integrity to terrorism. That's why it always fails in the end. Revenge is not a high form of integrity. You can't rape a baby with integrity.

This is why successful rights movements try to follow the principle of nonviolence, like Gandhi and MLK. If MLK turned to terrorism, blacks would still not have equal rights in the US. Blacks were oppressed worse than Palestinians, but they didn't turn to terrorism, which is what saved them. Palestinians need MLK-like leaders. Not Osama Bin Landen.

Leo, you're on a roll. I'm enjoying your posts right now. Your arguments are getting crisper. Brilliant. 

[Leo Gura]

To be clear, it is possible that Israel goes overboard in a nationalist, genocidal campaign for revenge. That would be a big mistake.

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

To be clear, it is possible that Israel goes overboard in a nationalist, genocidal campaign for revenge. That would be a big mistake.

I hope that NATO can convince Bibi and the IDF to be as level headed as possible.

[Leo Gura]

42 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I hope that NATO can convince Bibi and the IDF to be as level headed as possible.

Unfortunately I don't think they will listen to anyone's calls for moderation. They are like an angry hornets nest now.

There is a high likelihood that Israel will overreact as the US did after 9/11.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Zega]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@lina Well, you have to ask yourself, How else can Hamas be eliminated? Because it certainly cannot be allowed to stay in power.

The unfortunate reality is that eliminating Hamas will involve a lot of collateral damage. Hamas is a cancer within the Palestinian population. Eliminating a cancer is very difficult and comes with serious side-effects.

I wish that wasn't the case, but that's the situation. Peace negotiations can resume once Hamas is eliminated and Palestinians have sane leadership.

Isn't Hamas the result of people who have been oppressed, humiliated, and segregated for seven decades? It's not shocking that people become radicalized from decades of oppression.

I don't see Hamas being eliminated while Gaza remains the world's largest open-air prison. There's no justice for Palestinians when they are abused by Israel citizens in the West Bank or anywhere else. There's a ton of video examples of the oppressed life of average Palestinians like this one 

 

I'm sure you're well aware of this already. 

The longer they live like this the more people will be radicalized and join Hamas. What other options do they have when your apartment building could just be bombed indiscriminately one day with little to no warning? It's not like there's any other groups to turn to.

Back to the cancer analogy, aren't Israel's actions like trying to treat cancer by smoking it out with tobacco? 

Counter intuitively wouldn't the Israel government be better off pushing for equal rights of Palestinians? Maybe policy change that allows them to leave Gaza....Probably wishful thinking on my part, but Hamas wouldn't have support of radicalized Palestinians if they weren't being treated as subhuman and given rights.

Maybe then they could have a sane leadership. 

Idk what the "correct" response is to Hamas's acts of terror but the violence is incredibly asymmetrical and Israel has the power to do this differently, but their right-wing government is a whole other topic.

quick edit*

I also want to add that from scrolling through various social media comments I've noticed people seem to think Hamas is some kind of power house that both controls Israel and Gaza. That's more a point about propaganda but I felt it worth mentioning. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Zega
hamas bad

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Zega said:

Isn't Hamas the result of people who have been oppressed, humiliated, and segregated for seven decades? It's not shocking that people become radicalized from decades of oppression.

Yes, however that doesn't matter when it comes down to a direct confrontation.

Morality doesn't work at that level of pure violence. For moral high ground to work you gotta not completely enrage the sleeping bear.

Once you start beheading their babies you can't demand mercy from your enemy. That's the foolishness of this Hamas action.

Quote

Back to the cancer analogy, aren't Israel's actions like trying to treat cancer by smoking it out with tobacco? 

The US did crush Al Queda and ISIS. So it can work.

Israel can occupy all of Gaza for years.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Truth Seekah]

[SurfingBird]

2 hours ago, Zega said:

Counter intuitively wouldn't the Israel government be better off pushing for equal rights of Palestinians? Maybe policy change that allows them to leave Gaza....Probably wishful thinking on my part, but Hamas wouldn't have support of radicalized Palestinians if they weren't being treated as subhuman and given rights.

Maybe then they could have a sane leadership. 

You are missing the entire problem. Israel can't give more rights to residents of Gaza and the West Bank because of Hamas, because the more freedom of movement they have, the more terror attacks like the one on the 7th of October you have.

Expecting Israel to just outright lift checkpoints, security checks and surveillance while Hamas still exists is telling Israel to forfeit the lives of their citizens, and that is simply not going to happen, especially after we've seen what Hamas would do with increased freedom.

I am Israeli, and I hope that once Hamas is destroyed and the Gaza strip disarmed, we will finally be able to give Palestinians a better life without the inevitability that this will cause more death on our side.

[Leo Gura]

You can't really give "freedom" and democracy to a pre enlightenment-era culture because freedom and democracy do not exist at that level of development.

It's the same problem as giving freedom and democracy in Iraq. Or giving feminism in Afghanistan. Liberals make the deadly mistake of assuming everyone is equal when they aren't.

Freedom and democracy can only exist once the citizens are evolved enough not to elect folks like Hamas. As soon as they elect something like Hamas, all the freedom goes down the toilet. True freedom requires tolerance and respect for alternative perspectives and lifestyles to your own. Which these Islamists are incapable of. Freedom requires racial and religious tolerance, which only arises at stage Orange and above.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Leo Gura