New War In Israel / Gaza

[Yousif]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif The sum damage could definitely be lower. But the casualities I think not.

I do not support the exaggerated material damage. 

But again you must see the equation from both sides what you refuses to do.

You gotta accept that you cannot justify killing innocent people, no amount of justification will help you because as a human being I assume you have a conscience, I see it from both sides, but you’ve been here everyday defending only one side, you may not have the control of what your government does, but at least you don’t have to support them in what they do, maybe that will make them stop, but you do want hamas to be eliminated even if that means killing millions of ( them). I understand, you’re scared and you would rather them be scared and die and not you, but I do believe you could’ve gotten rid of hamas in a better way than bombing the whole city. 
 

In the end, what you give is what you get.

 

 

[Yousif]

24 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

No, I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say anything was okay. I am trying to see people’s perspectives. 

I can want hamas to be eliminated, while at the same time keep civilians and innocent lives from dying, but my bro here keep justifying the killing of innocent people.

there are many ways you could’ve eliminated Hamas. 

They way they reacted was the same as the U.S. on 9/11 and the whole iraq war, complete lashing out and unconscious reaction to what happened. 

Edited February 17 by Yousif

[Twentyfirst]

45 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Nivsch Okay, I don’t know the truth. 
 

It’s almost impossible to see what is really going on. 

Israel stole Palestine. 

[Nivsch]

@Yousif Suggest a better way to eliminate hamas.

[Yousif]

Here is what happened in a smaller and at an individual scale, there’s a guy in school , after you bullied him for years, one day lashes at you and slaps the shit out of you, you’re shocked, because all of the school saw what happened and that really hurt your ego, so what you did is or what you’re trying to do, is go find him at his house, proceed to kill his little sister and brother and justify it because they were in your way, and you’ll keep killing all of his family members until he shows up and you can get your revenge, oh I forgot they you burnt and bombed their house as well. 

[Twentyfirst]

Just now, Nivsch said:

@Yousif Suggest a better way to eliminate hamas.

Hamas is a resistance group. Resisting tyranny. They really didn't do that much damage

[Yousif]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif Suggest a better way to eliminate hamas.

Let’s assume there’s no other way, is that enough reason for you to take civilians and innocent lives?

Edited February 17 by Yousif

[Yousif]

1 minute ago, Yousif said:

Here is what happened in a smaller and at an individual scale, there’s a guy in school , after you bullied him for years, one day lashes at you and slaps the shit out of you, you’re shocked, because all of the school saw what happened and that really hurt your ego, so what you did is or what you’re trying to do, is go find him at his house, proceed to kill his little sister and brother and justify it because they were in your way, and you’ll keep killing all of his family members until he shows up and you can get your revenge, oh I forgot they you burnt and bombed their house as well. 

If the people in his house didn’t tell you where he is or got in your way, is that enough reason for you to kill them, if so then you’re a murderer .

[Thought Art]

I have decided to no longer comment on such things on public forums. 
 

Anything I say will be misinterpreted.

My ignorance here, is too great. The risk of speaking about it too high.

Edited February 17 by Thought Art

[Yousif]

@Nivsch we see your point of view but it still doesn’t justify what’s happening, but you refuse to see ours, instead you’re here everyday justifying murder, and last I checked if you kill someone that didn’t do anything to you, it counts as murder and crime, yet you keep on justifying it. 

[Yousif]

11 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I have decided to no longer comment on such things on public forums. 
 

Anything I say will be misinterpreted.

My ignorance here, is too great. The risk of speaking about it too high.

Things feel different when they get personal don’t they?

[Yousif]

As one of my fav people to listen to which happened to be a jew ( ram dass) used to say, “ “as long as there’s a “us” and a “them” you’re stuck, nothing you say or do will be of any good to anybody,not even yourself “ 

he didn’t say it exactly like this but this is basically what he said.

[Thought Art]

13 minutes ago, Yousif said:

Things feel different when they get personal don’t they?

No, they get different speaking to people who misinterpret and demonize you. Like you did.

If there is no “Us” and no “them” 

Why are you demonizing me for trying to see the perspectives of all of us?

Then, you moralize to me about my personal biases, which I wasn’t sharing to begin with. That’s no a fair or conscious way to communicate in the way I have tried to do. 
 

No one likes when bad things happen to them. That is essentially universal. 
 

So, when you ask me “what if a bad thing happened to you how would YOU feel?!” You miss the whole point of what I’m trying to do. Which, is scary to me and I realize it’s not worth it. Because we aren’t running the same operating system.
 

What you say changes nothing, because I already understand that. 
 

Speaking to you reminds me of how hard it is to communicate with other humans who twist your words. Whether on purpose or not. 
 

My goal is to understand this conflict, and all conflicts in general. I want to understand human bias, and selfishness. To do this I have to try to see the perspectives of everyone involved. I have learned that trying to share my understanding of other peoples perspectives leads people to accuse me of justifying their actions. 
 

To see how someone else justifies their actions, not me justifying their actions. 
 

I will continue to contemplate and try to see clearly what is happening, admitting when I’m wrong, allowing my mind to deepen. 
 

But, I’ve realized to do it in private. Because of people who act like you.
 

Edited February 17 by Thought Art

[Yousif]

8 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

No, they get different speaking to people who misinterpret and demonize you. Like you did.

If there is no “Us” and no “them” 

Why are you demonizing me for trying to see the perspectives of all of us?

Then, you moralize to me about my personal biases, which I wasn’t sharing to begin with. That’s no a fair or conscious way to communicate in the way I have tried to do. 
 

No one likes when bad things happen to them. That is essentially universal. 
 

So, when you ask me “what if a bad thing happened to you how would YOU feel?!” You miss the whole point of what I’m trying to do. Which, is scary to me and I realize it’s not worth it. Because we aren’t running the same operating system.
 

What you say changes nothing, because I already understand that. 
 

Speaking to you reminds me of how hard it is to communicate with other humans who twist your words. Whether on purpose or not. 
 

My goal is to understand this conflict, and all conflicts in general. I want to understand human bias, and selfishness. To do this I have to try to see the perspectives of everyone involved. 
 

But, I’ve realized to do it in private. Because of people who act like you.
 

How did I demonize you?

all I did was I switched the countries that are at play and the players so it feelz personal, because when things are personal how people judge a situation changes, like you might be okay with bullying at your school but when they start bullying you it starts to become a problem.

[Nivsch]

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war.

Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too in most of the attacks.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war.

Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too.

You are talking about the tunnels that Hamas builds that endangers civilian life? What about the fact that they have no choice but to go underground because there isn't any other option because they are backed into a corner 

[Yousif]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war.

Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too.

I asked one simple question and please don’t avoid it again, 

does that justify the killing of civilians and innocent people? Even if there where no other solution? 
 

also in a hostage scenario, you would do anything to protect the hostage, you could’ve treated hamas as terrorist holding hostages ( which would be innocent civilians ) but you simply don’t care about their lives and don’t see what you’re doing as a crime, I keep repeating the same point, and you keep on avoiding it, so nothing is accomplished.

[Thought Art]

@Yousif Demonizing me that I think killing innocent people is okay. But, just not my people. That’s how I interpret that. 

If I was going to take an objective, selfless view on it… my results should be the same regardless of whether I’m at risk or not.
 

However, if I was at risk I couldn’t contemplate it in the way I do. That should be obvious. 
 

And like I said, doesn’t change how OTHER PEOPLE justify their actions.  When I try to understand OTHER peoples perspectives, it doesn’t mean I agree with them. 
 

I would prefer no war at all anyway. Whether it’s here or not. 
 

But, the thing is what are OTHERS those actually involved thinking and doing. Make that distinction.

Edited February 17 by Thought Art

[Nivsch]

@Yousif I dont understand this game of justified or not justified.

I wish nobody innocent would have been killed. Of course. But this is impossible.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Yousif]

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Yousif Demonizing me that I think killing innocent people is okay. But, just not my people. That’s how I interpret that. 

If I was going to take an objective, selfless view on it… my results should be the same regardless of whether I’m at risk or not.
 

However, if I was at risk I couldn’t contemplate it in the way I do. That should be obvious. 
 

And like I said, doesn’t change how OTHER PEOPLE justify their actions.  When I try to understand OTHER peoples perspectives, it doesn’t mean I agree with them. 
 

I would prefer no war at all anyway. Whether it’s here or not. 
 

But, the thing is what are OTHERS those actually involved thinking and doing. Make that distinction.

That’s not what I meant, don’t interpret meaning of things and then believe it to be true.