My thoughts on the bodhisattva vow

[Theplay]

The bodhisattva is said to be an entity that almost gets to enlightenment,

yet he doesn't go all the way and postpones his/her enlightenment until all beings are awake.

In Buddhism it is held as the highest path one could take.

But I beg to differ.

There is no rush.

If an entity has suffered enough it will awaken eventually.

It is nobodies job to awaken all sentient beings, and thinking you can is arrogance.

I am not against teaching, it can be a form of love.

But coming at it with the mindset that you should forsaken your own enlightenment for the sake of others is just spiritual none-sense.

 Buddhism is a beautiful religion, but the bodhisattva ideal is flawed and I think it is a big trap.

(Into which I have almost fallen myself)

I wanted to end with J.R.R. Tolkien's poem:

“All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.”

  

[Jodistrict]

You are coming from the assumption that you are an "individual".

[ChrisZoZo]

12 hours ago, Theplay said:

In Buddhism it is held as the highest path one could take.

This belief is so disgusting. I’m willing to bet everything I own a genuine enlightened  buddhist  Master does not believe this. If you follow truth it will lead to all truths. The same as if you follow the false by delaying enlightenment you are giving power to the false that simply it. This means you will be living a life that is incorrect in its perception. From this you will commit horrendous horrors i’m just delaying the planetary awakening. 
 

[caspex]

You are not an individual though. I am pretty sure in such a state you are aware everything is one, waking others is waking yourself. To awaken every being would mean to awaken every part of you as God. What good is just awakening this one single being right here? To truly be enlightened, wouldn't you need to be enlightened as every being? I am sure it's not that the Boddhisatva is delaying their enlightenment, they are delaying leaving to another plane. But they are already enlightened. In such a state you are infinitely patient. The only thing after enlightening this being right here, is to enlighten every other being. It just makes sense. After a point I don't think you can grow without helping enlighten other beings, solipsism being true or not.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Swarnim

[WeCome1]

On 5/16/2023 at 3:17 AM, Theplay said:

The bodhisattva is said to be an entity that almost gets to enlightenment,

yet he doesn't go all the way and postpones his/her enlightenment until all beings are awake.

On 5/16/2023 at 3:17 AM, Theplay said:

It is nobodies job to awaken all sentient beings, and thinking you can is arrogance.

On 5/16/2023 at 3:17 AM, Theplay said:

But coming at it with the mindset that you should forsaken your own enlightenment for the sake of others is just spiritual none-sense.

23 hours ago, ChrisZoZo said:

The same as if you follow the false by delaying enlightenment you are giving power to the false that simply it. This means you will be living a life that is incorrect in its perception.

But that is not what the message of Mahayana Buddhism is about. This is:

On 5/16/2023 at 3:17 AM, Theplay said:

I am not against teaching, it can be a form of love.

Buddhist philosophy has been evolving for 2500 years - and so has their idea of what is the ultimate attainment.

Early Buddhist schools like Theravada set the goal of realizing one's true "buddha nature" by overcoming kleshas ("poisons of the mind") that obscure it. Basically, a permanent ego-death, which, in turn, ends the dukkha (suffering discontentment) and reveals that "samsara" has been "nirvana" all along. Not unlike the post-nirvikalpa-samadhi state in yoga/vedanta philosophy; or the final 10th season of the zen bull, if you prefer.

Mahayana does not reject this attainment - it merely states that it's not the ultimate one, and expands upon it. Remember how Leo likes to say that "enlightenment is not GOD-realization"? Well, the way I see it, Mahayana's ultimate attainment, Prajnaparamita (perfect wisdom, absolute knowledge) and the accompanying Karuna (compassion, (Love?..)) - is something along these lines. And how does one develop perfect love and wisdom? Certainly not by blissing out in sitting meditation - but by engaging with the world, even though it is now clearly seen as illusory. And in what way would one engage with "the sentient beings" of this world in order to develop perfect love; what is the one most loving thing to do? Using Upaya ("skillful means") to rid them of their apparent suffering certainly comes to mind.

I've heard that the misconception about "Mahayana bodhisattvas rejecting enlightenment" is mostly common in the Western academia - and mostly due to overemphasizing this one Ksitigarbha Sutra, where Buddha tells Ksitigrabha about the merits of dedicating ones efforts to the good of all beings, and how it leads to unimaginable levels of bliss - and Ksitigrabha takes it to the extreme; thus forming "the ideal of a bodhisattva".

[Razard86]

There is nobody to awake but you. Awakening others is just a story you tell yourself to create continuity in your universal story. Close your eyes, dream of becoming awake in your dream....is there anybody else to awaken once you do that? NO!! But in your dream you can say...I want to awaken others!!! Even though there are no others!!!

At the end of your human dream you will be in the void with the full realization that there was nobody else to awaken. ONLY YOU CAN AWAKEN!!! Spirituality is just a game God plays....the entire dream is just a game!!!

[Razard86]

54 minutes ago, Vibes said:

Seeing other suffering makes me suffer. Is that just another way to keep the dream going? To keep other existing, right?

I wonder what is like to live constantly free of suffering for other and just accept life without judgment. Do you live like that? Is it even possible?

Your power as God is absolute, if you do not want to realize that others do not suffer you won't realize it. Is it possible? It is. Do I live like this? Not currently. Why? Because you realize....you love the fact that others suffer and that you suffer because suffering creates meaning. A robot cannot suffer, so that's why we don't believe robots are real. 

Notice the movies, video games, and books that can generate emotion within you to make you feel pain, and joy you enjoy the most!! If these medium cannot evoke an emotional response out of you, then you feel indifferent to them. So notice...this is why God LOVES the EGO!!! God is indifferent!!! So to God, God cannot get to experience suffering and have depth, and meaning, and purpose etc.

So when you fully awaken and realize others don't suffer, but you still want to experience others and suffering, you go back into the dream and experience it. Suffering is a beautiful thing, but you can only realize it as the creator, not the biased character within the story. 

This contrast is hilarious though, you know how dumb you feel when you thought suffering was bad and realize it is actually good? It's a mind fuck for real!!! Also when you realize that you can make others real or imaginary....that also fucks with you. God's power is fucking amazing. I mean....I cannot understand how I can break the dream and realize it is all imaginary and re-enter and see how amazing God can make something appear real.

You can literally know everything is not real, but still IT FEELS REAL!!! Life is a fucking masterpiece. God is the greatest actor that ever lived. No human actor no movie, no VR Game, nothing can compare to how real life feels...yet it is all a dream. THIS truly blows your mind!!! I still cannot get over it! God is freaking AMAZING!!

This is why you will never break the dream unless you really want too, because God's ability to make something real IS ABSOLUTE!!! It's too good to be true, it's a got damn miracle. I really wish everyone could experience this, it's why I go so hard. When you break the dream, you can still get it back and go back into duality, but you also have access to the metaphysical experience of everything being you also. 

So you get the best of both worlds. Also here is the kicker and its something I figured. When you fully awaken, how you experience your Enlightenment won't be the same as ME. It is tailored to how you want to experience your dream. Leo alluded to this before when he said Enlightenment is imaginary. IT IS. And it is freaking amazing!!! It is tailored to YOU, and what you wanted to experience!!! And the thing is....you can't buy this. All the money in the world won't get this for you. I'm so happy I awoke...it's why I want it so bad for the rest of you all.

You have no idea how bad I want it for you all. Enlightenment is the coolest thing ever. Way better than advertised. WAYYYYYY BETTTER. It's better than sex, a mansion, a great relationship with friends, better than a mansion, better than anything!! In fact it saps your motivation to pursue anything because...you feel complete and whole. You gain true knowledge of yourself and others. Egos literally cannot fool you, and you can no longer fool yourself. 

Egos are basically your inner child, the waah waah waah I want my way part of you. Lol. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Razard86

[funkychunkymonkey]

what i dont get about this is 1 i cant see this vow having any true value unless you reached the "full enlightenment" 2 trying to enlighten them all! whoa thats a big goal! i know me personally.... i would be dead before i reached this maybe that is the full enlightenment! HAHA!  seems like a chore i think its a very honorable thing to aspire to do it if you wish but i would not. i like helping the very few people i do  i dont need much else 

[Water by the River]

Just my humble opinion:

• Every thought/concept emerging in ones mindstream is not created or chosen by "oneself/ego/person/body-mind". But by the Totality of Absolute Reality, infinitely intelligent.
• That Absolute Reality manifests a Universe that clearly develops, and grows to more complex forms:
  • atom, molecule, bacteria, plant, animal, human, ... , Alien Mouse, Alien anything, (sorry, just kidding), up to Intelligences govering whole Universes/Void Universes. That is called a Buddha-Field in Buddhism by the way, with a really Buddha/God governing its Buddhafield (manifestation of a Universe).  There is an infinitude of Buddha-Fields/Manifestations/Gods or Buddhas governign/running Buddhafields. So a long career path if you like.... If you are interested in that, check out the Supreme Arrray Sutra:
    • https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz
    • Or: An Infinity of Gods/Buddhafields, described in 3rd/4th century CE. 
      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhāvataṃsaka_Sūtra

 

• Just maybe, if one conforms to what the Universe is doing anyway......
  • which is getting itself to grow, develop, and wake-up (self-realize its True Being in as many beings as possible, once the capacity is in place),
  • and helps it waking up once one has woken up onself (which is the base of the Boddhisattva-vow: Once you wake up, not to keep that Awakening and its resulting bliss for yourself, and live happily ever after, which by the way is the easiest thing to do then, without the minor annoyance/effort of "helping" "others")
    • telling "them" about which paths up the mountain actually work, which just circle around the mountain without ever getting closer to the top, which paths stop at 95% of the mountain, and which just rack up loads of bad Karma or drop off a cliff to start at place zero or pretty low again.  Or at least ones own experiences of the path up the mountain.
    • and promises to do something like (Boddhisattva-Vow) that once one has woken up (better not starting before, because that tends - not necessarily, but tends -  to be an ego-show. And not go off to the cave happily ever after....
    • and overall, at least be compassionate and nice to "other" beings while on the path, as much as possible.
• .... Ones own Intuition and Intelligence (which is governed by the Infinite Intelligence of Reality/Totality anyway (or do you choose which thoughts/concepts emerge in your mindstream? "I" don't...) is helped by the Totality in any way the Infinite Intelligence of Reality can? Since the Totality wants to wake up, or has a tendency to do so?
  • That can take an intuition (or feeling drawn to) of choosing working paths/methods instead of not-working ones.
  • That can result in
    • nice and balanced success on the relative level of live (Friends, partner, job/business/financials)
    • making the right decissions in life
    • having luck in ones decissions
    • a lot of energy and motivation in ones endevours (intellectual, business, financial, any aspect of an integrated life)
    • As Nisargadatta once said "Winnnig the grace of ones True Nature"
    • that is at least my experience. Coincidence or not, I am happy about how things are in my life.

And for the postponing ones Enlightenment/Waking Up until saving them all: That is in large parts Buddhist folklore and myth. You can not really help others beings without being awake yourself, at least not to wake up fully.

• Its like in an airplane: If masks drop, put on your mask first before helping others put on their mask. Because if you don't, you can go unconsciousness (and the "other" too), before you can help anyone.
• Like every Religion for the masses, in which Buddhism also takes part, there are some nice background-story that are maybe a little bit to rosy and naive. This one probably belongs to it. Help yourself and wake up (put the mask on), then help others put the mask on.
  • But be nice and benevolent to "others" while putting on the mask, don't kick them out of their seats on your way to the mask, so to say.

Then, who in his right mind wouldn't choose to make such an agreement/"deal" (Boddhisattva Agreement) with Reality? And of course honestly and authentically, Infinite Intelligence already knows all of your mindstream, cause it IS that already. And Reality listens very openly to ones mindstreams, its intentions and prayers, and can respond miraculously to it (for example in the emotions is manifests in the mindstream: Loving or annoyed for example). Because the opening of ones mindstream and consciousness, its emptiness and its emergent thoughts, is already are direct link to the Universal Mind of the Universe and Infinite Consciousness already, by definition. There are not two "consciousnesses" anywhere..... It is literally the same.

Of course its all a dream, an Infinite Universal Mind imagining a dream. But at least yours truly prefers a nice dream to a nightmare. So who in his right mind would say its all a dream, its all imagined, and ignore the laws of Karma (of which the Boddhisattva-vow forms a large part) and life a miserable life ignoring cause and effect ever after? Well, you guessed, only a confused ignorant separate self under the spell of illusion....

“My realization is higher than the sky. But my observance of karma is finer than grains of flour.", Padmasambhava

That means nothing else than although one keeps the Absolute Perspective of its all an arising in Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality, one is not so stupid to think that this Lila/Dream has a very consequent structure, is very coherent (different than dreams at night), and if one shoots oneself in the knee (Karma-wise, or literally), one is going to be hurting/limping for the rest of ones life.... And knowing about the tendence of the Universe to grow towards more complexity and awakening, and ignoring that, or not taking some kind of Boddhisattva-vow (the wise/intelligent form of it), is similiar to shooting oneself in the knee, at least in a certain perspective.

And a "round-out" from the Absolute Side of the Street, to keep it balanced ), courtesy of Francis Lucille -  "Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance. From the perspective of [Absolute] Consciousness: Who cares?!". So either way, its show on!  

Bon voyage!

Water by the River

 

 

[Water by the River]

And short form of the post above on the Boddhisattva-Vow:

• Align yourself with the tendency of the Universe/Reality (evolving to ever more complex forms and waking up in as many beings as possible),
• vow to grow and help as much as possible in the process, both at/with yourself and "others", and
• get the direct grace/intuition/intelligence of the Totality/Infinite Consciousness (infinitely intelligent anyway) also manifested in your mindstream, at least in a higher degree than just closing down and only caring for ones own "stuff".

Bon voyage! 

Water by the River

Edited May 18, 2023 by Water by the River

[Theplay]

@WeCome1 I hear you .

You have changed my perspective.

Now I want to become a psychologist

and help relief others of their mental suffering.

Namaste

@funkychunkymonkey Exactly! You help the ones you can.

If every enlightened being helps his/her environment all will be enlightened in no time.

Enjoy your day

Daniel.