The Best Arguments To Use Against Theists/Religious People - My Original Ideas

[r0ckyreed]

One of the best arguments to use against religious people is to ask them if something can come from nothing.

Almost all of them I have asked so far have said that it is impossible for something to come from nothing.  But there is a problem with saying this because if you say that something cannot come from nothing, then you are contradicting yourself because how can you claim you have free will if your thoughts and choices are always coming from something outside of you.  That is essentially determinism in a nutshell.  And their God would have to come from something too since God is "something" by their logic.  But if God is Nothingness, and they claim that something cannot come from Nothingness, then they are basically saying that God is impossible and doesn't exist.

On the other hand, if you say that it is possible that something can come from nothing, then you are at least opening the possibility of free will because free will is being able to make choices independent of past influences. However, this does not escape the problem because if you claim that it is possible for something to come from nothing, then you admit that there is no outside creator separate from creation. If something can come from Nothingness, then the something that came from nothing is Nothingness manifested into somethingness!! There is no existencer of existence. There is only existence. Therefore, God does not exist.

Argument from free will is that if your choices come from something, then you do not actually have free will. But if your choices come from nothingness, then you have free will. But claiming that you have free will is also saying that you claim that you are God, which most religious fundamentalists do not agree with. They think God is separate from them and creation.

Argument from determinism is that if something can only come from something, then determinism is correct and you cannot have free will. But this is dangerous to religious thinkers because then that would also mean that sin cannot exist since sin is a freely chosen act against God. You cannot be held responsible morally if the causes of responsibility go back infinitely.

Compatibilism seems to be the correct way of viewing the relationships between free will and determinism. Consciousness isn't entirely free because it needs to limit itself in order to experience itself. Neither is Consciousness mechanistic. The past/future don't exist outside The Eternal Moment, so extreme determinism isn't right either. The correct answer lies in the balance and non duality of freewill and determinism. Think of it like Free Will is the Yin and Determinism is the Yang. Just like how the Universe is hot and cold, dark and light, and neither one or the other.

Convincing a Religious Person What God Really Is

My thoughts on all of this are that everything you see around you comes from nothingness. There is no such thing as an infinite regress because everything goes back into nothing and not something. Infinite regress assumes the past exists, but you have never experienced the past, only the present. Infinite regress does not exist, only an Infinite Process.  For instance, you can look at a pencil and can use your mind to trace the ''causes'' back forever. But that isn't because it is an infinite regress. That is because the Present Moment is an Infinite Moment and can keep imagining past/future forever in this Infinite Moment/Process.  All of your thoughts tracing a pencil ''back'' is actually one thought of an Infinite amount of thoughts occurring in this Uncaused Moment.  Consciousness is Uncaused. What would cause consciousness? Everything you trace as a cause is Consciousness! Everything you experience or define as a cause is occurring within Consciousness! A pencil is nothing but a figment of Consciousness. Every object, sound, perception, music, art, brain, and person is a figment of Consciousness! The cause of a pencil is Nothing! But Infinite Consciousness can imagine ''causes'' forever because Existence is Forever and is Uncaused! There is no such thing as an Infinite Regress (never has and never will) only Infinite Consciousness! What atheists call the Infinite Regress is actually ''God'' or Infinite Consciousness!

I actually do not prefer the term God. I think The Force is more accurate. Think of what you call God or The Force as being Gravity. Gravity is God! Why do you think George Lucas calls the most fundamental substance of the universe, The Force? He is pointing to Gravity, which is a figment of Consciousness. The Jedi are using The Force (or Gravity) to manipulate Gravity!!  God is Gravity, Consciousness, The Force.

So yes, you have free will but you also don't. Black and white thinking is one of the main problems of the religious mind.

What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Share your insights. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

One of the best arguments to use against religious people is to ask them if something can come from nothing.

Almost all of them I have asked so far have said that it is impossible for something to come from nothing.  But there is a problem with saying this because if you say that something cannot come from nothing, then you are contradicting yourself because how can you claim you have free will if your thoughts and choices are always coming from something outside of you.  That is essentially determinism in a nutshell.  And their God would have to come from something too since God is "something" by their logic.  But if God is Nothingness, and they claim that something cannot come from Nothingness, then they are basically saying that God is impossible and doesn't exist.

On the other hand, if you say that it is possible that something can come from nothing, then you are at least opening the possibility of free will because free will is being able to make choices independent of past influences. However, this does not escape the problem because if you claim that it is possible for something to come from nothing, then you admit that there is no outside creator separate from creation. If something can come from Nothingness, then the something that came from nothing is Nothingness manifested into somethingness!! There is no existencer of existence. There is only existence. Therefore, God does not exist.

Argument from free will is that if your choices come from something, then you do not actually have free will. But if your choices come from nothingness, then you have free will. But claiming that you have free will is also saying that you claim that you are God, which most religious fundamentalists do not agree with. They think God is separate from them and creation.

Argument from determinism is that if something can only come from something, then determinism is correct and you cannot have free will. But this is dangerous to religious thinkers because then that would also mean that sin cannot exist since sin is a freely chosen act against God. You cannot be held responsible morally if the causes of responsibility go back infinitely.

Compatibilism seems to be the correct way of viewing the relationships between free will and determinism. Consciousness isn't entirely free because it needs to limit itself in order to experience itself. Neither is Consciousness mechanistic. The past/future don't exist outside The Eternal Moment, so extreme determinism isn't right either. The correct answer lies in the balance and non duality of freewill and determinism. Think of it like Free Will is the Yin and Determinism is the Yang. Just like how the Universe is hot and cold, dark and light, and neither one or the other.

Convincing a Religious Person What God Really Is

My thoughts on all of this are that everything you see around you comes from nothingness. There is no such thing as an infinite regress because everything goes back into nothing and not something. Infinite regress assumes the past exists, but you have never experienced the past, only the present. Infinite regress does not exist, only an Infinite Process.  For instance, you can look at a pencil and can use your mind to trace the ''causes'' back forever. But that isn't because it is an infinite regress. That is because the Present Moment is an Infinite Moment and can keep imagining past/future forever in this Infinite Moment/Process.  All of your thoughts tracing a pencil ''back'' is actually one thought of an Infinite amount of thoughts occurring in this Uncaused Moment.  Consciousness is Uncaused. What would cause consciousness? Everything you trace as a cause is Consciousness! Everything you experience or define as a cause is occurring within Consciousness! A pencil is nothing but a figment of Consciousness. Every object, sound, perception, music, art, brain, and person is a figment of Consciousness! The cause of a pencil is Nothing! But Infinite Consciousness can imagine ''causes'' forever because Existence is Forever and is Uncaused! There is no such thing as an Infinite Regress (never has and never will) only Infinite Consciousness! What atheists call the Infinite Regress is actually ''God'' or Infinite Consciousness!

I actually do not prefer the term God. I think The Force is more accurate. Think of what you call God or The Force as being Gravity. Gravity is God! Why do you think George Lucas calls the most fundamental substance of the universe, The Force? He is pointing to Gravity, which is a figment of Consciousness. The Jedi are using The Force (or Gravity) to manipulate Gravity!!  God is Gravity, Consciousness, The Force.

So yes, you have free will but you also don't. Black and white thinking is one of the main problems of the religious mind.

What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Share your insights. 

Lol good luck going down that rabbit hole. You'll see how dishonest and confused they all are.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Razard86

[Yimpa]

Or you can cut through all that crap and focus on yourself 

Trust me, I’ve argued plenty. It’s not worth it in the end. 

[Yimpa]

Hint: you’re arguing with yourself. Always. Unless you see through it 

[r0ckyreed]

I hear you all. I do get that it is a distraction from myself. I’m not saying I do it 24/7. But when I get an in-person opportunity, which is rare for me, I like to challenge their thinking with logic. I realize that I get thrilled and entertained by challenging myself and others.

It helps me develop witty thinking when I engage in debates every now and then. I think that is one thing Leo is not so nuanced about. Having debates every now and then trains your mind to be able to formulate your ideas to others. If you cannot articulate your ideas, then you don’t understand them.

You just have to find the right person to talk to. Of course, when I smell a closed minded person, I don’t waste a breath on them. But if a friend or stranger is openminded and wants to have a conversation, then I use the arguments I listed above.

There’s a lot of benefit in interacting and sharing ideas with others, as well as contemplating alone.

Edited May 13, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Yimpa]

@r0ckyreed cheers!

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

I hear you all. I do get that it is a distraction from myself. I’m not saying I do it 24/7. But when I get an in-person opportunity, which is rare for me, I like to challenge their thinking with logic. I realize that I get thrilled and entertained by challenging myself and others.

It helps me develop witty thinking when I engage in debates every now and then. I think that is one thing Leo is not so nuanced about. Having debates every now and then trains your mind to be able to formulate your ideas to others. If you cannot articulate your ideas, then you don’t understand them.

You just have to find the right person to talk to. Of course, when I smell a closed minded person, I don’t waste a breath on them. But if a friend or stranger is openminded and wants to have a conversation, then I use the arguments I listed above.

There’s a lot of benefit in interacting and sharing ideas with others, as well as contemplating alone.

This is true and it's how I developed my ability to formulate thoughts as well but I'm telling you it's sad how deluded they are. You want a laugh? Try this one!!! 

Me: Do you believe every word out of Jesus's mouth is the TRUTH? 

Christian: Yes!!! I believe whatever Jesus said is the truth!! 

Me: Okay let's read this verse . John 10:34 " Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’?"

Christian: I think he meant something else.

Me: I have more verses that support the fact Jesus meant exactly what he said in this verse.

Christian: I don't believe he meant that.

Me: And I just proved you don't believe whatever Jesus said is truth. You are looking for a way to disprove what he said. NOTICE THIS!! 

Christian: No I'm not Jesus is the ONE TRUE SON OF GOD!

Me: He literally says that everyone is God. 

Christian: He didn't mean that.

Me: Laughing and you have proven my point.

You see? if you show Christians this, they will argue with JESUS that they can't be equal to him even though his entire ministry was literally making that point!!! It's so funny!!! The entire Christian religion is a FARCE!!! They deny the words of the person they worship, which means they don't really want the truth!!!

I talked to a Christian Pastor once and gave him verse after verse in the Bible that reveals that everyone is God. He fought me tooth and nail. You are wasting your time, they are deluded fools who believe themselves to be sinners UNWORTHY of being One with God. They think they need some guy named Jesus to die for them to be worthy of even communicating with God much less being the same as God. 

It's an idiotic religion full of shame, self-righteousness, and guilt. Don't get me started on the Catholic Church who believes they need some human to forgive them of their sins through confession. Anyway I don't want to sound too mean lol, they are doing the best they can to INCH ever so slowly towards Truth. Like a centipede.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Razard86

[Hojo]

what we know of god is not known by 90 percent of the population. 90 percent of religious people are ignorant simply because they haven't done philosophy. But what they dont understand is that philosophy is religion. We've already finished philosophy and created religions out of it.

I picture god as a force as well, Gods fist is tightly closed creating your reality. Loosen the fist with your mind by practising letting go.

[r0ckyreed]

That’s why I don’t like using the word God to describe The Force/Infinite Consciousness. It just makes it confusing because how 90% of the people use the concept is a fantasy inside Infinite Consciousness.

I only “argue” with people I deem openminded. 

I never personally read the Bible, so I appreciated those verses Razard. I just don’t see any value in reading the Bible. I would much rather contemplate and create my own philosophy by that point.

[Razard86]

35 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

That’s why I don’t like using the word God to describe The Force/Infinite Consciousness. It just makes it confusing because how 90% of the people use the concept is a fantasy inside Infinite Consciousness.

I only “argue” with people I deem openminded. 

I never personally read the Bible, so I appreciated those verses Razard. I just don’t see any value in reading the Bible. I would much rather contemplate and create my own philosophy by that point.

Whatever you demonize, you make yourself ignorant of. The Bible is GOLD it has many teachings that is full of wisdom. You can't even say you don't see value in reading it, if you have never personally read it. You see how your self-deception doesn't make sense? If you didn't read it, you didn't see it. Since you didn't see it how can you determine it's value? 

To not see it, is to not know it. And the fact is YOU CREATED the Bible. So you are denying an aspect of yourself that you yourself created. If you don't want to read it, it's fine. But some of the deepest wisdom is housed within it and you have no idea what you are missing. 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Razard86

[r0ckyreed]

33 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Whatever you demonize, you make yourself ignorant of. The Bible is GOLD it has many teachings that is full of wisdom. You can't even say you don't see value in reading it, if you have never personally read it. You see how your self-deception doesn't make sense? If you didn't read it, you didn't see it. Since you didn't see it how can you determine it's value? 

To not see it, is to not know it. And the fact is YOU CREATED the Bible. So you are denying an aspect of yourself that you yourself created. If you don't want to read it, it's fine. But some of the deepest wisdom is housed within it and you have no idea what you are missing. 

 

 

Okay. But I have also created the Vedas, Koran, and Torah, as well Donald Trump. The issue is that this human lifetime is limited, and no amount of reading books will awaken me. I want to reach the insights Jesus reached and beyond through direct experience. But of course, I would have to read about them to know it. So it is nuanced there. I just don’t see it worth my time to sort out all the gold from the crap. But I may change my mind in the future. For now, I am using Chat GPT to summarize the main insights and teachings from Jesus. I want to spend more of my time contemplating than reading. 

[Razard86]

28 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Okay. But I have also created the Vedas, Koran, and Torah, as well Donald Trump. The issue is that this human lifetime is limited, and no amount of reading books will awaken me. I want to reach the insights Jesus reached and beyond through direct experience. But of course, I would have to read about them to know it. So it is nuanced there. I just don’t see it worth my time to sort out all the gold from the crap. But I may change my mind in the future. For now, I am using Chat GPT to summarize the main insights and teachings from Jesus. I want to spend more of my time contemplating than reading. 

ChatGPT is not going to give you the highest teachings of the Bible because ChatGPT is going to give you what is popular from searches. I know more about the Bible than ChatGPT because ChatGPT is programmed by corrupted humans. Also you should study Donald Trump, there is much corruption currently in your mind if you cannot see the value in studying something deeply. You are looking for surface fast fixes. This is a trap. If you avoid things and keep looking for the easy way out you will lack the depth necessary for mastery. 

ChatGPT is not going to give you mastery it is going to give you cookie cutter answers from a cookie cutter society. I have already played around with ChatGPT in the past, it's not impressive in the slightest when it comes to depth and wisdom. If anything it is too politically correct. But to each his own. Go play with the neutered bot that is there to brainwash you further in societal conditioned thinking. 

[Lila9]

I gave up on arguing with them years ago.

I used to argue a lot with every religious Christian, Buddhist or Muslim that I met and who tried to enforce their beliefs on me. 

After years of experience with arguing with them I got to the conclusion that it's a waste of time.

I didn't realize it in the past because I thought that I'm doing them a favor for killing their dogma.

But it's immposible to kill dogma of a person who doesn't want their dogma to be killed, who has a real sense of fear of death when his dogma is getting put under question.

And they are at blue, means that it's just where they are and no matter how good my argument would be, they will understand it only from blue perspective.

Today when someone dogmatic is trying to argue with me, I say I'm not into arguing. I am entitled to my beliefs and you are entitled to yours.

Only when someone comes to me with an open mind and genuinely asks my opinion (which rarely happens with religious people lol), I say what I have to say.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Lila9

[Inliytened1]

@r0ckyreed it's ridiculously easy to trick them up.  The problem is they dont really want to know.  They want to remain glued to their beliefs, and you cannot rip them from them.  You can only coddle them.  

Edited May 14, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Yimpa]

What trying to wake up a religious person is like

The newspaper is the Bible 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Yimpa