Spiral Dynamics and Relationship Compatibility

[theleelajoker]

Question: Do you think it's possible to have a healthy long term relationship when you are - at least approximately - not in the same "stage"?

Very often in talks or in conflicts with my gf, I see that she is not able to see or to understand what I am saying, While I believe that this is "normal" to some degree, I feel that it increasingly bothers be that we don't really understand each other. It's not a "I am better than you " but rather a "OK I see where you are right now. I really do like you a lot but I wonder if I am the right person for you right now (and vice versa)"

It costs me more and more energy because it automatically puts us in a "teacher - student" or a even a "perpetrator-victim" role setting. For instance, we have a conflict and I say "Ok, I realize I did this and that etc and I am sorry" while she just goes into accusations towards me and refuses to take responsibility for her actions. Sometimes I stay calm, see it for what it is (insecurity, trauma, ego, subconscious protection mechanisms of the psyche). I tell myself that what matters is focusing on me, that she is the way she is (with other great qualities) and as best as I can I refrain from any expectations of how she should behave. Doing my best to accept her just the way she is.

But sometimes it really bothers me. I know and I feel she is adding drama where conflict could be avoided easily. And the way we both are, we cannot talk eye to eye because of these roles and patterns. I know people change and I do see a lot of development in her. At the same time, I have been growing as well and the "gap" between stays the same.  I also believe that she is bothered by it as well, but in an opposite way. She once said "how do you think it feels when you have the feeling that the other person (=me) is so much more mature than yourself?"

One of my thoughts is that maybe in the past, I "needed" these roles for validation and recognition. That's why I (subconsciously) chose back than her but now I wonder about the fit in the today...

PS: I know Spiral Dynamics is just a model and not the reality. But I do find value in it as it helps to cluster believes and values I see in people + people knowing SD will get my question without me doing a lot of explanation

[integral]

Its unlikely she will change in time to save the relationship, if she's going to grow up it will be after years of failed relationships or she will more likely settle down with someone at her level who doesn't challenge her and doesn't make the invented "mistakes" you are making. 

Its significantly more enjoyable and 100% worth it to be with some who is closer to your level.

It sound to me this is less about SD and more that she is immature. If you often find yourself saying something and she gets triggered by it randomly its not working out. Got to identify signs and not be over tolerant to them. Playing the tolerant role is mature but it actually backfired over months and years because the unforeseen result is the constant exposure to unhealthy patterns of others slowly chips away at your emotional stability and you end up shaping yourself to be more like them. It is not healthy to be exposed to peoples constant drama, it doesn't matter how developed you are.

If I learned anything from my experiences with dating bellow my level its that you need to have standards. These standards protect you, your openminded and non-judgemental and tolerant, yes you are and thats great, but you still need standards and cut people out if they create to much drama. Being tolerant does not mean you can handle peoples constant problems and negativity for a life time. Help people as much as you can at a distance, but for intimate relationships and friendships cut out negative and unhealthy people and stick to healthy developed ones. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by integral

[theleelajoker]

When I read your reply, my first intuitive reaction was: You're probably right. About her and that SD is probably overcomplicating things here.

The quotes below feels very on point. Being too tolerant is a) not good for me and b) more or less confirming her patterns and in the long run, not helping her.

Coincidentally, I cut out a friend for this very reason just today. I was tolerant, and respectful, and non-judgemental for quite a while but there was a gut feeling that a limit was reached. This action actually led me to the question of what feels right for my relationship with my gf.

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Playing the tolerant role is mature but it actually backfired over months and years because the unforeseen result is the constant exposure to unhealthy patterns of others slowly chips away at your emotional stability and you end up shaping yourself to be more like them. It is not healthy to be exposed to peoples constant drama, it doesn't matter how developed you are.

 

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Help people as much as you can at a distance, but for intimate relationships and friendships cut out negative and unhealthy people and stick to healthy developed ones. 

Hurts to let go, though. As of right now, I think I will talk to her very openly about my concerns and what she feels and what she thinks is best. If she is really committed, then we can give it a certain period of time and then see how we feel. Sometimes it requires some effort to make the relationship work. I am willing to give it a bit more time to find out if this is "working things out" or "squaring the circle"...

Edited April 25, 2023 by theleelajoker

[Roy]

You may be outgrowing her and have to leave her eventually. It happens man. If you really love her you will let her walk her own path at her pace, instead of trying to force her to "catch up". That dynamic isn't healthy and will erode the relationship, as resentment inevitably builds.'

Generally you want to be with someone close to your own level of development with roughly same values and framework.

Think of a relationship like an elastic. You can only stretch it in so many directions for so long before it snaps, and even if it never snaps - being under constant tension isn't good either.

[theleelajoker]

@Roy yes I went through the "want her to catch up phase".  I realized that this only creates expectations and pressure for both of us. Even when I did not say anything directly, I believe she subconsciously felt that I have such expectations. Big Lesson for me that it matters what you feel and not what you say. I dont want her to change as I did before yet if I accept her as she is now, the question of fit becomes stronger.

I really do like the elastic analogy. For us right now it looks like a constant strech-relax cycle. Things seem fine for a while but I realize more and more that they are not. Every month or so there is a situation where conflict happens and the tensions discharge. Then I see what things she has been holding back in the phase before.  But the core issues are not sufficiently resolved. And the cycle begins again...

Edited April 25, 2023 by theleelajoker

[integral]

@theleelajoker

10 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Sometimes it requires some effort to make the relationship work. I am willing to give it a bit more time to find out if this is "working things out" or "squaring the circle"...

The major lesson this will bring to your life is your going to be more selective next time entering a new relationship, its unrealistic to suddenly break up with her now because your already in the tick of it and attached, so its likely going to play out till the end. This kind of elastic push and pull relationship has a bitter ending where she will likely not acknowledge all the effort you put into keeping it together because she doesn't recognize herself as the drama creator and problem, instead she will blame you in the end and think back at the entire relationships with selective negative memory leaving her with a negative outlook on the whole relationship, a unfair assessment. This is one possibility how it can play out.

Another issue with dating bellow ones level is the reason they are attracted to you is not the same reason you are attracted to them. When things come to an end you will still view her from a positive perspective but for her she cant do that, her emotions for you will change and she will just see you as some random guy she doesn't like. To survive she needs to strongly distance herself from you and that means demonizing you. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by integral

[theleelajoker]

Wow, that is quite an analysis. Appreciate it.

Unfortunately, I know that what you described is a realistic scenario. I once have been in a toxic relationship and this seems like a 2.0 version of it.  I learned a lot since then and she is by far not as immature as my ex.  She's in therapy, she actively works on her patterns and I know she does give an effort. At the same time, I see the limitations of change. It's like a growing plant - no matter how much water, sun and care you give it simply takes time and there is no way to accelerate things.

In your experience / opinion - what is it that attracts her to me? I think it is more difficult for me to see as I am emotionally involved. I would guess she is looking for positivity/lightness that might be underrepresented in her, looking in me for stability and identification she cannot give herself. And speculating a bit more - maybe she is subconsciously looking for a relationship that will not work because it confirms her belief system ("I am not worthy of love")

The last point would then be valid for me as well - only that I started to realize it a bit more than she does at this point of time...

[theleelajoker]

@integral

I don't know why, I was just doing some work and then this quote from you came to my mind. And I could not stop thinking about it.

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To survive she needs to strongly distance herself from you and that means demonizing you

Do you mean "survive" in this context in a way of ego protection?

The reason I am asking is that when I thought about your quote, there is one situation that immediately came to my mind:

She recently came back from a meditation retreat (her first one). I already did a few of them and we talked about her experiences. At one point I told her that those retreats and the meditation practice afterwards are a big reason why I have the world views and belief systems I have. I said "after you had your first retreat, you maybe understand better why I believe what I believe. For example, I believe sometimes it is just necessary to go through a certain kind of (emotional) pain because pain is not a bad thing per se"

In this moment, her whole mood changed.  All the easiness, calmness and balance from the retreat went away in one instant. There was an energy as if you blow air into the embers of a fire. She looked at me with fiery eyes, her tone became sharp and she said "But if there is something that makes me feel bad, I will not tolerate it!

I spare you the details of the following discussion about "pain" and "suffering" and how I see the difference. All I want to say is that this very scene came into my mind at the same time I thought about your quote. The scene came so clear, so sharp and I did not think about it for weeks before. I feel like this moment might be symbolic for how strong her ego and its will to survive still is. And how big her resistance to pain. And it makes me sad right now because I feel like these attitudes might be the very things that will doom us as a couple

Edited April 26, 2023 by theleelajoker

[integral]

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

In this moment, her whole mood changed.  All the easiness, calmness and balance from the retreat went away in one instant. There was an energy as if you blow air into the embers of a fire. She looked at me with fiery eyes, her tone became sharp and she said "But if there is something that makes me feel bad, I will not tolerate it!

Are you familiar with the practice of Non-Violent communication? She seems to be very sensitive to the words "you" and "I" and experiences it as a personal attack and competition, the ember is defensiveness. It can be tricky but a possible way she can rewire this pattern is to have positive experiences when ideas are exchanged instead of negative ones, in this case you would have to play the right melody when introducing topics. Its possible repetition of good experiences over time will rewire the habit she has but in my experience I could not get it to work so its definitely tricky. Another thing I've seen improve these kind of things from personal experience is couples psychedelic experiences that creates deep bounding and psychedelic sex. She will become more comfortable and open with you, her guard will come down, your no longer a threat. 

She also experience things that challenges her beliefs as personal attacks, her beliefs are a reflection of her, when she introduces an idea she believes she is putting her ego on the line, so challenging them is challenging her. A masculine mind doesn't do this as much, but in the end communication, beliefs and "logical thinking" is people justifying how they feel with ideas. Logic, ideas and reasons are to justify emotions. Its counterintuitive for the masculine mind that emotions is what your communicating to a the feminine mind not ideas.

How she feels is more important then what is true, the truth is how she feels in that moment. Even if she acknowledges the truth and agrees with you if she did not feel good about the conversation she will forget the truth in time and default to her previously held beliefs. 

When it comes to survival in her position when she decides she has to "not like you anymore" the negative emotions craft a image of you that does not represents the truth of who you are or any of the good you did for her. Actually all the good you did for her will make her feel self reassuring when she thinks about it because she will frame it as "he was always negative all the time", depending if she is in self-denial she will literally frame it as you where always negative and the cause of drama. Its one possible way women go about break ups. 

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I spare you the details of the following discussion about "pain" and "suffering" and how I see the difference. All I want to say is that this very scene came into my mind at the same time I thought about your quote. The scene came so clear, so sharp and I did not think about it for weeks before. I feel like this moment might be symbolic for how strong her ego and its will to survive still is. And how big her resistance to pain. And it makes me sad right now because I feel like these attitudes might be the very things that will doom us as a couple

There is often childhood trauma involved with this kind of behavior in adulthood, have you asked her about her past? It can be related to growing up with parents that blame and accuse a lot and her needing to constantly deflect false accusations they put on her. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by integral

[integral]

On 4/25/2023 at 8:28 AM, theleelajoker said:

In your experience / opinion - what is it that attracts her to me? I think it is more difficult for me to see as I am emotionally involved. I would guess she is looking for positivity/lightness that might be underrepresented in her, looking in me for stability and identification she cannot give herself. And speculating a bit more - maybe she is subconsciously looking for a relationship that will not work because it confirms her belief system ("I am not worthy of love")

I wouldn't know exactly, attraction is a very primitive process and we tend to want complex answers to explain it. Leo covers this topic in the "how to get laid" videos. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by integral

[theleelajoker]

@integral: I am very grateful for your replies. To be honest, I am in a kind of "positive shock" because you hit the nail right on the head. This is really something for to work on and to improve my communication. You have no idea how valuable this is feels for me right now. THANKS A LOT!

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"the ember is defensiveness"

  yes, I often made this "masculine - logic - thinking - ideas" mistake in our talks. Now I realize how blind I have been. I remember one time when I was really able to transfer important messages to her. She even said so ("now I was able to listen much better to what you were saying"). It was a time when I was able to make her feel good. In case it helps anyone reading this, I was giving her a spontaneous caring, non-sexual massage while talking. Probably the physical attention and intimacy was crucial (she is also a big fan of cuddling).

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"beliefs and "logical thinking" is people justifying how they feel with ideas. Logic, ideas and reasons are to justify emotions"

OMG, I have never seen it like that. I can see it so clearly now, also for my belief systems and the way I justify my emotions with rational frameworks. I think now I also better understand the "drop all concepts" talks. Concepts are just a blanket created by the mind, but the way we feel is what really matters.

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"She also experience things that challenges her beliefs as personal attacks"

Now as you say it...so many experiences I can see in a totally different light. Again, how could I not see it before?

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"How she feels is more important then what is true, the truth is how she feels in that moment."

Yes, I "knew" that after reading a book once. And forgot it. Not easy to rewire my own patterns. Great that you remind me.

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"When it comes to survival in her position when she decides she has to "not like you anymore" the negative emotions craft a image of you that does not represents the truth of who you are or any of the good you did for her"

Ok, this part is crazy. In our last conflict, she was accusing me "of always being so negative".  I did not really get it and interpreted it as "OK, she bothered by her own shadow part and just projecting it onto me". Now I see how this was already the beginning of the "breaking up process", or at least is the defense mechanism because of the very thing you said:  I challenged her + I did in a bad way that triggered her -->Reaction:  f*** this guy, he's so negative, I gotta get out of here.

On the other hand, might it be a good sign that she told me that directly? It felt like venting, and I observed that she kind of "needs that". Afterwards she clearly feels better and we are typically more harmonious again.

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"There is often childhood trauma involved with this kind of behavior (...) It can be related to growing up with parents that blame and accuse a lot and her needing to constantly deflect false accusations they put on her. "

Right on target. She does not like to talk about it much. What I know from her or reading between the lines is:

• Father seemed to be a narcissist, or at least some narcissistic tendencies. Very impulsive behavior so that the kids had to watch out every moment to not do anything wrong
• Mother seemed to be in a victim role, "sacrificing" herself for the family. Was never happy with how my gf behaved or what she did - she could never do it right to her
• Parents did not like each other but stayed together anyways.  Father busy with his own trauma, could not be a responsible parent, not reliable at all. Mother never confronted father but coped with passive-aggressive behavior.

This fits all very well with what you said. She always had to be on edge and defend herself.

 

Puh...I definitely have to process this.  I would like to ask a few more questions, I do have the feeling that your replies will be helpful again:

 

• She is also very provocative. Testing the limit of how far she can go. Quite cute when it's playful, but she very often crosses the line and goes beyond what she knows is considered as respectful by me. What you make of that? What is your advice how to handle it?
• Let's assume it is not too late and the breaking up process is not irreversible yet. So my best approach is to communicate non-violent, not putting pressure or expectations on her, not challenging her, focusing on positive emotions, physical intimacy (psychedelics are not an option for her unfortunately). Anything else that you see as helpful to reduce the "threat" I potentially pose to her?
• Positive / negative emotions: So the idea is that if she feels good around me and not threatened, then she has a safe space and can open up to the negative emotions from her trauma?
• I see how a lot of the actions I can do in our relationship is just being a decent human being. I see where I failed (a lot!) but also when I managed to be a caring partner, giving her the time, safety and space she needs. I know that no one can say, especially on a forum with little info - but I wonder if there is a chance this might still work long term? Or am I getting too much into helper syndrome trying to make this work?

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by theleelajoker

[Simple Success]

What do you guys argue about? Beware of projecting your own ego onto her, it's easy to do.

 

What stage do you think she's at compared to you, and why?

 

 

[theleelajoker]

@Simple Success

Now that I think about it, there are a few big themes of our conflicts:

1. She not telling me the whole truth about sth.: I am disappointed bc if she can't be honest with me with small things, how can I trust her? Probably some ego projecting here as I am disappointed she still does not feel save enough to tell me the truth about how she feels. She probably does it because she was used to fulfill parent's expectations and has difficulty to express her desires

2.  Provocative behavior: To be honest, those things are intertwined because I realize in hindsight that I (subconsciously) provoke her too. It's always a back and forth. Difficult to see where the dynamic started and by whom. But sooner or later it's too much for one of us and we hurt each other

3. She gets defensive, is closed to views other than her own, deflects responsibility: After reading what @integralwrote - that's on me. Will work on my communication

Re the stages

• She - greenish. She has a strong sense for equality, community. Status is not very important to her. She does not think systemic and is not familiar with ideas such as non-duality. Thinks rather in terms of judgement than in terms of integration. Sometimes falls back very quick into red (also makes more sense for me after @integral post - she feels threatened)
• Me - yellowish: Systemic thinking, non-dual thinking and action, integration, shadow work are major themes for me right now. The conversations I have in this forum indicate to me that there is a long way to go until I can act in a way consistent to the next level.

Edited April 27, 2023 by theleelajoker

[Simple Success]

Sounds like the gap of spirals isn't too much to be a significant problem. 

[integral]

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

• Ok, this part is crazy. In our last conflict, she was accusing me "of always being so negative".  I did not really get it and interpreted it as "OK, she bothered by her own shadow part and just projecting it onto me". Now I see how this was already the beginning of the "breaking up process", or at least is the defense mechanism because of the very thing you said:  I challenged her + I did in a bad way that triggered her -->Reaction:  f*** this guy, he's so negative, I gotta get out of here.

Like I said earlier the kind of guy she will end up dating is one that does not challenge her. That means a guy that does not talk about psychology or who wants to go meta all the time, go deeper all the time into everything. She's not ready for meta talks yet, it challenges her beliefs and so are personal attacks. This is the main reason she experiences you as always negative. Of course your not the negative one she just cant relax and see how going meta is fun in that moment because everything is a threat! Another issue is your addicted and hooked on going meta, finding deeper insights into everything so its a really bad fit and a major incompatibility in the relationship. A better fit is going to be a simple guy that makes her laugh and talks about mundane things and whos lost in Maya like her. She needs to be in maya for a while until she is ready to peak her head out on her own time when curiosity hits and is emotionally comfortable and ready for it. While on the other hand your a Whac-A-Mole sniper that slams her head in with a hammer when she peaks her head out or even worse you jam your hand in the hole and rip her out of the illusion when she's sleeping, its stressful being woken up. When you date someone at your level it just all clicks, you have a insight, you say it and they get a dopamine hit from it, they bounce off your ideas with there own, they view you as a super star, its synergy that creates love. 

As a rule make sure she is feeling comfortable and relaxed before introducing meta topics, the mood has to be right and use language that will not be interpreted as a threat, the rest of the time and most of the time keep is mundane and fun, she's not ready and needs to peak her head out at her own pace.

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

@integral: I am very grateful for your replies. To be honest, I am in a kind of "positive shock" because you hit the nail right on the head. This is really something for to work on and to improve my communication. You have no idea how valuable this is feels for me right now. THANKS A LOT!

??? The reason I'm appearing like an all knowing oracle right now (who im not) is because we are actually very similar and your in a very similar situation to the one I was in with a past gf, who after the break up left me completely puzzled and seeking deeper answers. Now I'm giving you does answers.

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

On the other hand, might it be a good sign that she told me that directly? It felt like venting, and I observed that she kind of "needs that". Afterwards she clearly feels better and we are typically more harmonious again.

Hot cold hot cold. It was good for you but not for her. Your so healthy you turn everything into a positive ending, she doesn't and has selective negative memory. When she remembers things she remembers negative things more predominantly then positive things. While you remember things fairly, balanced or positively. That's a result of a loving childhood, a gift. She didnt receive that gift. Also your in a healthier state of mind and extract the positive from every negative experience. 

Another note is even if you help her, even if she makes huge progress with you because of her terrible memory she wont credit it back to you, she wont remember how she changes, who she was before and after she changed. The memory she is experiencing is like a fleeting dream, forgotten and inaccurate. She remembers how she feels about that memory right now in the present moment. The details of the memory are distorted to fit how she feels right now. Its a radical thing and she will only remember the negative memories. 

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

• I see how a lot of the actions I can do in our relationship is just being a decent human being. I see where I failed (a lot!) but also when I managed to be a caring partner, giving her the time, safety and space she needs. I know that no one can say, especially on a forum with little info - but I wonder if there is a chance this might still work long term? Or am I getting too much into helper syndrome trying to make this work?

I think your doing the best that you can and if your learning and constantly improving then the relationship has served its purpose, relationships are rapid growth facilities bringing us into closer alignment with love, purging us of all of our luggage. 

Its natural to want the relationships to work out and to do what ever you can to make it work. Do what you can, maybe find her therapy that can target childhood trauma.

The type of questions your asking it seems like she is destined to self destruct and its not your fault. There is a incompatibility and its not your fault. Its a trap to over adapt to her every need, it will leave you feeling suppressed long term and like your always walking on egg shells around her. At some point your going to show resistance and it will fall apart by your own hands. It was unavoidable despite your best efforts. 

Does she know or acknowledge her trauma? Her hyper sensitivity? If she is blaming your for being negative there is likely a gap in her self-awareness. She has to some how become aware of this but its a level 10 threat, so pick peak premium opportunities to crack that nut. She's not into psychedelics but that would put her in a peak state of love and acceptance where resistance/blockages melts away and allows for complete comfort and a openness she has never experienced before, a break through opportunity. It can be worth more then 10 years of therapy. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by integral

[theleelajoker]

Again, thanks. And again, you are soooo spot on.

• Yes, I am addicted to meta. Thx for pointing this out someone needed to tell me this urgently
• She is not there yet.  She needs to do it in her own time and way. The way I have doing it has been is using a hammer where a hug would have been the right choice.
• The synergy with the meta, the dopamine hit, the laughing about it --> that is exactly what I have been talking about with my sister today. I just could not see it as clearly as you put it. Crazy synchronicity.
• The mundane, staying in maya, keeping her relaxed etc. Yeah, I have been doing it partly but my meta addiction + deep talk also came into play. I think that also represents the hot-cold dynamic: Half of us fits her needs very well, half does not. Half is the reason she wants to run away, the other is why she stayed so far.
• The "helping and selective memory": OMG, I can see it now. Makes 100% sense with what she said and what I experienced
• Now the very funny thing: ALL the points you make - I see how she again and again told me these points as well. More or less direct, like women often do but sometimes quite direct. I just was not able to listen and to understand. I was stuck in my own program. "Life actually tells you all you need to know, all you got to do is listen" is what I always tell friends. Yeah, great job of me, this listening
• I had one thought a couple of times and now it comes up again: Maybe she is the right one BECAUSE she is not into Meta and BECAUSE she makes me do and communicate things differently and BECAUSE she is not ready. I don't mean to be unauthentic or adapting to her needs...but to play a bit in maya myself. Go for the mundane. Stop "metaing" all the time. Just enjoy her beauty the way she is. My desire to help stems from my perception that she is suffering and I would like to help reducing it..but I obviously cannot do much.  Next week, I start a new job where I actually teach meta-stuff all the time so I think that will reduce my desire to talk about it with her.  We all need a break once in a while after all, right? And over time I will see if I feel like having a partner that is more similiar or that the difference is what actually is the right thing.
• Despite me (unintentionally)  pushing her so much she is still with me. Kind of surprising given what I understand now. I think there is one part in her that really wants to wake up and likes that I am giving my best even if I do it "the wrong way"
• Re your similar experience: I feel with you and I wish you the best. I won't say no more, all the meta things I could say you already know.

I honestly don't know what to say. These interactions in the last two days gave me more clarity about me, her and our relationship than I ever could have imagined. I have a deep feeling of gratitude and I hope it transfers through this chat.

I don't intend to strain your patience - at the same time, would you like to give your opinion on the provocative behavior? I do it myself and neither with her nor me I could put together the puzzle pieces yet. My guesses so far:  Attention seeking? Trying to push people away and see if they still stay? Rebellious act bc of past suppression in childhood?

Edited April 27, 2023 by theleelajoker

[blackchair]

im waiting/looking for coral gay husbund in his 30's (im 34) i WILL die alone in the cave, and the animals will eat my corpse! 

[integral]

11 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I don't intend to strain your patience - at the same time, would you like to give your opinion on the provocative behavior? I do it myself and neither with her nor me I could put together the puzzle pieces yet. My guesses so far:  Attention seeking? Trying to push people away and see if they still stay? Rebellious act bc of past suppression in childhood?

She does not have a secure attachment style, this means she is constantly asking the question "Does he love me?" or "Can I Trust him?". Then you come along and temporarily put her mind at easy and reassure her. She detaches again and asks the question "Does he love me?", stuck in a state always unsure of the relationship, a wall that is erected preventing deeper connection. This contributes to lies or telling half truths avoiding deeper intimacy. The reason for this is she is bringing the relationships she had with her parents growing up into all her friendships and intimate relationships in adulthood. When she put trust and seeked love from her parents they betrayed her, she could not rely on them and so feels she cannot rely on anyone. That same wall is between you guys now. For someone with a secure attachment style we don't even think about it, there is no evidence that would suggest the partner lacks integrity, is unreliable or cant be trusted, but for her no matter how many times you prove to her you love her and that she can trust you its not enough, she defaults to separation, how she feels about you is always in question. There can be fear of abandonment leading to a need to remain detached from a partner to protect one self, a preventative measure.

On the subject of integrity, her parents likely lacked it and that means she lacks it. Becarful of that because it leads to some very hurtful acts and double standards. 

 

11 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

• I had one thought a couple of times and now it comes up again: Maybe she is the right one BECAUSE she is not into Meta and BECAUSE she makes me do and communicate things differently and BECAUSE she is not ready. I don't mean to be unauthentic or adapting to her needs...but to play a bit in maya myself. Go for the mundane. Stop "metaing" all the time. Just enjoy her beauty the way she is. My desire to help stems from my perception that she is suffering and I would like to help reducing it..but I obviously cannot do much.  Next week, I start a new job where I actually teach meta-stuff all the time so I think that will reduce my desire to talk about it with her.  We all need a break once in a while after all, right? And over time I will see if I feel like having a partner that is more similiar or that the difference is what actually is the right thing.

HAHA a hopeless optimist , Great talk glad it was useful! 

Edited April 27, 2023 by integral

[theleelajoker]

I don't think you have any idea how useful. Frankly, it's not only her - I see those patterns you described also in me. It really only clicked with your last post when it came all together.

You wrote that I remember things fairly, balanced or positively and that this is the result of a loving childhood. That's only true to a degree. I tend to see the negative often, I don't trust easily and I question "does she love me?" as well. My childhood was anything but loving and the thing about unreliable parents, abandonment, narcissist father etc. - yeah, you can put a check mark there.

The degree might be different, but seeing you laying our her likely thought process (which fits all my experiences, observations so well that it is almost magical) I cannot help but be reminded of me and my own thought processes. The double standard thing, the lack of integrity - my father was probably the superman of hypocracy and lies. And being honest to myself in this very moment -  f***, I can see parts of that with me, too.

OK, self-development, meditation, psycedelics etc helped but the veil of ignorance I cast myself now slowly disappears...I have been blind to many of my patterns the same way she is blind to it. That's why the meta-addiction - rationalizing feelings instead of feeling them. That is likely also why me and my gf found each other - we share these traits to some degree.

For me, it becomes pretty obvious that I need to do trauma therapy.

The one thing that is true - I do my best to be optimistic, glass half full not half empty!   So I feel that me and my gf, despite all the stuff - we do have a connection. I remember once she told me "before we started dating, I made up all kind of bad things about you in my mind to give me a reason not to date you". I found it strange, until a while later I noticed that I did the same. I told her this and she said "you know, that is one reason I like you - I believe that we understand each other without the need to explain much"

So maybe we can make it a common healing journey. At least for a while.  No idea is that is possible, her trauma seems much deeper than mine. Especially what you mention about the negative memory & the bias is quite difficult. I often noticed how she changed stories with this very bias but I never made the connection you explained.

Whatever it will be, I focus on myself and see where it gets us.  I need to do some research and find me a therapy...

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by theleelajoker

[theleelajoker]

F***, it's all me, isn't it?

Can be quite confusing, this "waking up"