Awakening through the intellect is impossible.

[ivankiss]

Obviously. 

But maybe it's not so obvious to everyone.

I'm not saying the intellect doesn't serve a purpose. It does. And it can, in a sense, get you closer to enlightenment. But ultimately, it has to be let go of. It has to be surrendered. When enlightenment dawns, the intellect is the very thing that gets dissolved. Willingly or unwillingly. 

Understanding it is great and useful, I'd say. But understanding it is never actually it. The activity of consciousness is not actual, direct, infinite consciousness.

In that sense, 'the work' we are doing is quite literally walking backwards. Not trying to get anywhere, rather unwinding and undoing various patterns of the mind.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

????

[Someone here]

Thanks for sharing. 

I think The value of intellectual realisations should not be diminished. They are signs that the false ‘solidity’ is starting to crumble, that ignorance is reducing. If these occur they can be anything from joyful to very disturbing for a while. Partial realisations can be disturbing existentially. I’ve had this. I suddenly knew intellectually that the classic object/mind model could not possibly be true but I didn’t have an alternative (after all it was intellectual.)

I remained in intellectual existential crisis for years regarding that point

[Razard86]

22 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Thanks for sharing. 

I think The value of intellectual realisations should not be diminished.

They should absolutely be diminished. An intellectual realization is equivalent to an intellectual understanding of sex versus actual sex. Most awakenings feel like metaphysical sex, and literally reveal that reality is not some concrete material world, until this curtain has been dropped you can only believe that it is true.

For some reason you cannot admit this, this is due to fear of facing an actual awakening. This means you fear getting close to death, yet you speak on these forums as if you have faced it. When you actually face it, then you will realize the beauty and horror that is you. Until then, you are just imagining which is literally nowhere near the real deal. 

Do you believe you can intellectually understand jumping out of a plane without a parachute? You cannot, no matter how hard you try.  

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

They should absolutely be diminished. An intellectual realization is equivalent to an intellectual understanding of sex versus actual sex. Most awakenings feel like metaphysical sex, and literally reveal that reality is not some concrete material world, until this curtain has been dropped you can only believe that it is true.

For some reason you cannot admit this, this is due to fear of facing an actual awakening. This means you fear getting close to death, yet you speak on these forums as if you have faced it. When you actually face it, then you will realize the beauty and horror that is you. Until then, you are just imagining which is literally nowhere near the real deal. 

Do you believe you can intellectually understand jumping out of a plane without a parachute? You cannot, no matter how hard you try.  

Hmmm . . . no. There can be intellectual understanding, understanding of labels in relation to other labels. And from such labeling thinking mind can narrate, to itself and others, stories of “intellectual awakening”, “spiritual awakening”, “science fiction”, “adam and eve”, “Me and My Life”, etc, etc.

There are many degree and levels of awakening.  Its not a binary on & off switch (you're either awake or full of shit )

 I would agree though, that ultimately, at its core, awakening involves awakening to mind and from mind. Awakening from the very seemingly real illusion, “I am me”.

There is no relation between the intellect and spiritual awakening of the person.

It is all Nature or God's play. Who becomes what is all part of God's play. A low intellect can become enlightened or an high intellect can become enlightened. There is no pattern.  Whatever you resonate with .Whatever makes you happy dude .leave me the fuck alone ?

[ivankiss]

35 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

An intellectual realization is equivalent to an intellectual understanding of sex versus actual sex.

Precisely. However, it is also useful to intellectually understand that the penis should go into the vagina. It is good to know what sex is all about, but it cannot be compared to or mistaken for actually having sex. So in that sense, I agree with @Someone here too. There is value in understanding. But it's not the end all be all.

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

Precisely. However, it is also useful to intellectually understand that the penis should go into the vagina. It is good to know what sex is all about, but it cannot be compared to or mistaken for actually having sex. So in that sense, I agree with @Someone here too. There is value in understanding. But it's not the end all be all.

Never said understanding isn't important...but think about the example you just gave....if it was that complicated to know that a penis go into a vagina then the human race would have gone extinct!! Understanding only helps you ground the awakening!!

 

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Hmmm . . . no. There can be intellectual understanding, understanding of labels in relation to other labels. And from such labeling thinking mind can narrate, to itself and others, stories of “intellectual awakening”, “spiritual awakening”, “science fiction”, “adam and eve”, “Me and My Life”, etc, etc.

There are many degree and levels of awakening.  Its not a binary on & off switch (you're either awake or full of shit )

 I would agree though, that ultimately, at its core, awakening involves awakening to mind and from mind. Awakening from the very seemingly real illusion, “I am me”.

There is no relation between the intellect and spiritual awakening of the person.

It is all Nature or God's play. Who becomes what is all part of God's play. A low intellect can become enlightened or an high intellect can become enlightened. There is no pattern.  Whatever you resonate with .Whatever makes you happy dude .leave me the fuck alone ?

 

Literally what you are saying right now, every SINGLE spiritual teacher has disagreed with you. The funny thing is after you have an awakening....you will agree. That is why I find your defenses so hilarious, you really don't want to give up on this. Telling someone they don't have a physical body versus them having direct experience with that is totally different. 

Have you faced an existential crisis? Have you faced every cell in your body screaming vibrationally that this is the END? Have you ever exploded and gone infinite? NO!!!! You cannot have an intellectual understanding of this. You have no idea how ignorant and arrogant you sound. Its like me telling a rape victim I can intellectually understand rape!!! It's childish, and reeks of being inauthentic. 

I'm not trying to come on hard on you, but Spirituality is about truth. Stop trying to teach others when you are resisting such an obvious truth. Its been close to a year and you are still singing this same song that an intellectual understanding is equivalent to an actual awakening. Its not, it never has been and never will be. There is not a single spiritual teacher or guru who would agree with you. 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Razard86

[Someone here]

@Razard86 who pissed on your soup this morning? 

[Razard86]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Razard86 who pissed on your soup this morning? 

I only get annoyed by inauthenticity. You know what is being presented is true yet you resist. Would you want someone who intellectually understands surgery to operate on you? No. Would you want someone who intellectually understands piloting to fly you somewhere? No. Would you want someone who intellectual understands plumbing to work on the plumbing of your house? No. 

 You are the only person I have ever come across who pushes this mindset. At one point I thought the same last year myself in January and in March I finally got a chance to experience an awakening....and nothing could have prepared me for it. All that intellectual understanding pales in comparison. Even worse on a certain post on this forum someone asked to describe awakening and you used the word "ineffable" which means beyond words. So you even know on an intellectual level that this isn't the case. 

So you see how you contradict yourself? Also notice how you attempt to put the focus on me, I'm not the one in denial. This is YOU telling YOU to wake up, go balls to the wall, and face the stuff you keep mentally masturbating over. You live in India if I'm correct which isn't hard to get yourself a good ole awakening. No amount of discussing Spirituality = actually practicing it. Do you really want to be stuck for another year? Saying the same old tired story that you yourself don't even believe? 

[Someone here]

Lol

[axiom]

There are thoughts, and thoughts can take the form “I understand”. But nothing is actually understood.

Everything without exception is meaningless.

[Razard86]

3 minutes ago, axiom said:

There are thoughts, and thoughts can take the form “I understand”. But nothing is actually understood.

Everything without exception is meaningless.

Which is also why it has meaning. Meaninglessness is also a meaning. Nice try by the way. You can't tie it down no matter how hard you try.

 

[axiom]

@Razard86

These are just (meaningless) words on a page, apparently. 

[Someone here]

@Razard86 chillax bro. This is Internet forum.  Nothing serious goin' on here . No WWIII.

Just some random dudes mentally masturbating over stuff and spiritually bypassing ontological metaphysical superficial controversy ?

[Razard86]

57 minutes ago, axiom said:

@Razard86

These are just (meaningless) words on a page, apparently. 

That one statement can be expanded upon in this one phrase....everything is meaningless. But notice...you are still here...reading and communicating. Apparently and actually....are the same thing. It's all in how you hold it. You wanna sit here and play the infinite perspectives game? Sound fun for you?

[Razard86]

56 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Razard86 chillax bro. This is Internet forum.  Nothing serious goin' on here . No WWIII.

Just some random dudes mentally masturbating over stuff and spiritually bypassing ontological metaphysical superficial controversy ?

I'm always chillax, this is me chillaxing, too hot for you? Go hug the beautiful Christmas tree behind you. Nice picture by the way. Now go melt in Infinite Love and give us a cool trip report when you are done.

[axiom]

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

That one statement can be expanded upon in this one phrase....everything is meaningless. But notice...you are still here...reading and communicating. Apparently and actually....are the same thing. It's all in how you hold it. You wanna sit here and play the infinite perspectives game? Sound fun for you?

Does it sound fun…

No, it does not really sound fun to be honest, as it sounds like it would take a long time, and I’m actually in bed (not feeling too well today). But thank you for asking me. Maybe someone else would like to play?

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Go hug the beautiful Christmas tree behind you.

Not before you tell me who pissed on your soup this morning.  You haven't yet 

[SourceCodo]

This is an interesting dichotomy to me.

 

On one hand, there is absolutely no room for intellect if you’re awakened to absolute unity and presence. It just simply doesn’t get used or thought of because you’re always in flow.

 

On the other hand, there’s no such thing as awakening without intellect. The concept of awakening is an entirely intellectual experience and pathway to self knowledge. Even the insights and epiphanies that ultimately shut you up is “instantly” intellectually delivered. 

Everything you’ve ever experienced or done was likely processed with intellect. Denying that to me is just ignorance or willfully lying about it because it’s natural to process experience with the mind. That being said, your post-awakened self is not driven by the intellect. Or at least is done in a more indirect way.
 

I’d argue that once awakening happens, you’re finally free to start winding down the overused and abused intellect. But not before.

Edited January 3, 2023 by SourceCodo

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, SourceCodo said:

This is an interesting dichotomy to me.

 

On one hand, there is absolutely no room for intellect if you’re awakened to absolute unity and presence. It just simply doesn’t get used or thought of because you’re always in flow.

 

On the other hand, there’s no such thing as awakening without intellect. The concept of awakening is an entirely intellectual experience and pathway to self knowledge. Even the insights and epiphanies that ultimately shut you up is “instantly” intellectually delivered. 

Everything you’ve ever experienced or done was likely processed with intellect. Denying that to me is just ignorance or willfully lying about it because it’s natural to process experience with the mind. That being said, your post-awakened self is not driven by the intellect. Or at least is done in a more indirect way.
 

I’d argue that once awakening happens, you’re finally free to start winding down the overused and abused intellect. But not before.

It's however you hold it.

 

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Does it sound fun…

No, it does not really sound fun to be honest, as it sounds like it would take a long time, and I’m actually in bed (not feeling too well today). But thank you for asking me. Maybe someone else would like to play?

Me too been sick for a week. It's been an amazing trip. 

 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Not before you tell me who pissed on your soup this morning.  You haven't yet 

Nobody pissed in my soup, I told you what my issue was. I'll be waiting for that wonderful trip report, hopefully I'll be the first to read it!!