The fundamental problem with redpill

[LordFall]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:35 AM, mr_engineer said:

It sees dating as a 'marketplace'. Which is fundamentally wrong. Because it commodifies people. 

This makes people disposable. And just one more option on a dating-app. And it feeds into people's egocentric view of 'other people being there to satisfy our needs'. 

This is a problem for making relationships work. Cuz to truly have a loving relationship, you can't be in your ego. Both sides have to be willing to set aside their own ego and focus on making the relationship itself work. 

The problem with this idea is that dating and mating IS fundamentally a marketplace based on commodities. Marriage has always been a socioeconomic institution and even on the biological side mating is just a drive for reproduction based on tribe dynamics and the exchange of resources.

I would argue that only AFTER you've taken care of the transactional side of things and making sure you have enough value to offer mates then you can worry about being in the flow of love and other things. This is also backed up by the spiritual side of things, whereas if you believe that love is everpresent in everything and everybody then the only thing you have to worry about is making sure your value proposition is up to par and love will take care of the rest.

There's a reason your soulmate is not a homeless crackhead or a squirrel, biology and tribal value have their place. 

[mr_engineer]

@LordFall You are right about the transactional aspect. 

Here's the thing, though - that's not what most adults are doing on dating-apps. They aren't actually making mature decisions! Including redpillers. They have certain personal preferences that they have rationalized into a theory. 

And, this transaction is highly specific to individuals. Commodities, by definition, are replicable. And replaceable. But, the reality of people, is that every person wants unique things and every person has something unique to offer. So, the whole issue becomes about compatibility. And, generalized theories painting everyone with one brush-stroke aren't very effective for that. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by mr_engineer

[LordFall]

4 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@LordFall You are right about the transactional aspect. 

Here's the thing, though - that's not what most adults are doing on dating-apps. They aren't actually making mature decisions! Including redpillers. They have certain personal preferences that they have rationalized into a theory. 

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

On the point where people are all different and want unique things I think that's actually true but only 10%. Your unique personality quirks, niche interests, and whatever else makes you unique are only really valued when you take care of the other 90%.

A good example is if you take hot girls of a certain type that all look the same, like let's say slim busty blonde girls; they all have different personalities but are widely valued the same. Some of them are secret nerds/anime girls type, some of them are actually really awkward, some of them are mean and aggressive and some are like hilariously funny. Until you have the value to date these girls/regularly hang out with them you'll never really see that though. 

Same thing as a man and even more so. If you're attractive and popular then you being a gamer is cool and you can invite girls over to play Mario kart and some of them will love that. I know of a popular pickup coach that only dates hot nerdy girls that are into dungeons and dragons. If you're a neckbeard type then your unique tastes and hobbies won't matter as much though. 

[mr_engineer]

@LordFall It's not the frivolous shit like 'tastes and hobbies'. What's infinitely more important is your personality, which is very much defined by your survival-strategy/your work. Your priorities in life, your values, even your religion and politics. Dating is no joke, it involves an integration of pretty much all aspects of your life. 

Redpill does kinda explain the status-quo right now, where blonde busty slim girls are high-value simply because of what they look like. Because we live in a shallow world. As our level of consciousness rises, that's changing!

And, by the way, that is flat-out wrong. The personalities of those women really matter too! It's not just how they look. If one of the women with the body-type you described wears clothes that fit her, she'll be a lot more attractive than someone with the same body-type, but who wears loose, baggy clothes. The whole thing about body-type is really overblown. The reality is that different individual men prioritize different aspects of the female body, depending on what their mom looked like. You can extend this to women with all body-types. For example, fat, Hispanic women. Same thing applies to them too! 

Edited November 3, 2022 by mr_engineer

[LordFall]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

@LordFall It's not the frivolous shit like 'tastes and hobbies'. What's infinitely more important is your personality, which is very much defined by your survival-strategy/your work. Your priorities in life, your values, even your religion and politics. Dating is no joke, it involves an integration of pretty much all aspects of your life. 

Redpill does kinda explain the status-quo right now, where blonde busty slim girls are high-value simply because of what they look like. Because we live in a shallow world. As our level of consciousness rises, that's changing!

And, by the way, that is flat-out wrong. The personalities of those women really matter too! It's not just how they look. If one of the women with the body-type you described wears clothes that fit her, she'll be a lot more attractive than someone with the same body-type, but who wears loose, baggy clothes. The whole thing about body-type is really overblown. The reality is that different individual men prioritize different aspects of the female body, depending on what their mom looked like. You can extend this to women with all body-types. For example, fat, Hispanic women. Same thing applies to them too! 

How would you define your personality apart from how it's reflected in the world meaning the hobbies/activities you partake in and how you communicate with people? I think the most accurate measure of personality I've seen is the 16 personalities and their cognitive functions as they represent how you prefer/are built to use your brain. I don't think all the other things you mentioned matter so much as the general lifestyle that this leads to you living. People of different religions often date as long as they live/aspire to live a similar lifestyle. 

Sure, fashion sense to boost your attractiveness/present specific traits is a skill that both men and women have to develop. Makes a massive difference.

What men are attracted to is a very complicated topic. I've studied it for years and it's still hard to figure out. Can you expand on what you know about men being attracted to their mother's body types? That's fascinating. AFAIK how it works is men are generally attracted to both the ideal female proportions(36–24–36) and also more so the type of women that they think they can get. Meaning men lower on the social dominance hierarchy will be attracted to women that are also lower placed in the hierarchy because they know that they're the ones they can mate with.

 

[mr_engineer]

@LordFall A huge part of your personality is in your creative-capacities. Human beings are fundamentally creators. So, when you talk about dating, it's all about what value can you bring into the other person's life. This is largely reflected in your work. Cuz work is all about creating and selling value. What kind of mind do you have?! Is it a judgemental mind, i.e. the mind of a narrative-creator, or the mind of a believer?

What needs do you have from other people? What do you look to other people for? That is its own rabbit-hole. And this is the meat of the work when it comes to compatibility. 

When I say 'religion', I mean, your actual belief-system relative to God. If you don't agree on that front, you won't 'get' each other. 

[LordFall]

26 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@LordFall A huge part of your personality is in your creative-capacities. Human beings are fundamentally creators. So, when you talk about dating, it's all about what value can you bring into the other person's life. This is largely reflected in your work. Cuz work is all about creating and selling value. What kind of mind do you have?! Is it a judgemental mind, i.e. the mind of a narrative-creator, or the mind of a believer?

What needs do you have from other people? What do you look to other people for? That is its own rabbit-hole. And this is the meat of the work when it comes to compatibility. 

Agreed, that's a good way to put it. Like if you had $1 billion what would you spend your time doing, what would you want to create and what kind of person would vibe with that? That's a healthier approach than the one most people seem to take. 

[mr_engineer]

2 hours ago, LordFall said:

What men are attracted to is a very complicated topic. I've studied it for years and it's still hard to figure out. Can you expand on what you know about men being attracted to their mother's body types? That's fascinating. AFAIK how it works is men are generally attracted to both the ideal female proportions(36–24–36) and also more so the type of women that they think they can get. Meaning men lower on the social dominance hierarchy will be attracted to women that are also lower placed in the hierarchy because they know that they're the ones they can mate with.

I only know about my own experience, to be honest. Boobs are a thing for me, ass isn't. When I looked into why this was the case, turned out that it's cuz my mom has this body-type. If my mom fully self-actualized her femininity, then this would be her strength in the looks-department. 

We also tend to want women who are improved versions of what our moms are. For example, if your mom was fat and she was insecure about that, you will want a woman who is slim! If your mom wasn't insecure about it, you won't mind a fat woman. The regrets your mom has relative to her lack of self-actualization will heavily reflect your preferences in women.

And, the morality of which woman is 'good for you', comes from your mom. Not your dad, your mom. Her morality heavily influences your choices. (The morality of which career is good for you comes from your dad, but that's another story) 

Edited November 3, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

2 hours ago, Tahuti said:

There is nothing wrong with any pill. Each has a perspective with fundamental truths attached... 

You are disposable. You must not be speaking with actual women. Speak to women in the flesh and they will show you just how "disposable" you are.

Which woman told you that you are disposable?! Cuz this is not the kind of rhetoric women have, as far as I can tell. Not directly, at least. 

I have 'spoken to women in the flesh' and they have shown me the opposite truth. Try being vulnerable in a circle where it's actually appropriate. Yes, they exist. There you'll see the real deal! 

[something_else]

5 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

I have 'spoken to women in the flesh' and they have shown me the opposite truth. Try being vulnerable in a circle where it's actually appropriate. Yes, they exist. There you'll see the real deal! 

Last I remember you'd never dated or been in a relationship, though.

[mr_engineer]

2 hours ago, something_else said:

Last I remember you'd never dated or been in a relationship, though.

Don't make this personal. 

[something_else]

1 minute ago, mr_engineer said:

Don't make this personal. 

It's an important point when you are presenting yourself as an authority on women and dating.

Edited November 7, 2022 by something_else

[mr_engineer]

Just now, something_else said:

It's an important point when you are presenting yourself as an authority on women and dating advice.

I'm not presenting myself as an authority on anything. 

And, I have 'spoken to women'. I know what they want. I'm just not there yet. 

Redpill is very easy to debunk. The theory itself is BS. Talk to women, you'll find out. 

[something_else]

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm not presenting myself as an authority on anything. 

And, I have 'spoken to women'. I know what they want. I'm just not there yet. 

Redpill is very easy to debunk. The theory itself is BS. Talk to women, you'll find out. 

I agree with you on redpill for the most part, I just think you're also a bit naïve. There are nuggets of truth to redpill, but the ideology and a lot of the theory is toxic.

A lot of what women tell you they're attracted to and what they actually go for in guys is quite different. You will find that out when you actually try to attract girls instead of just talking to them casually.

As a guy it helps you a lot to have some of the 'alpha' traits redpill preaches, as well as the sensitivity and vulnerability that you're talking about. Women like men who have both. It's hard to build attraction with only sensitivity and vulnerability, but those traits are much better for building long term relationships once you've already established attraction.

Edited November 7, 2022 by something_else

[mr_engineer]

9 minutes ago, something_else said:

It's an important point when you are presenting yourself as an authority on women and dating.

And, don't take away people's right to have opinions just because they don't have your definition of results. 

I have my definition of results. They're just not that materialistic. 

[something_else]

Just now, mr_engineer said:

And, don't take away people's right to have opinions just because they don't have your definition of results. 

I have my definition of results. They're just not that materialistic. 

I'm not taking away your right to have opinions, I'm just pointing out that you have no experience with what you are talking about confidently. That is a perfectly valid criticism.

[mr_engineer]

8 minutes ago, something_else said:

I'm not taking away your right to have opinions, I'm just pointing out that you have no experience with what you are talking about confidently. That is a perfectly valid criticism.

If you don't tell me which specific point you disagree with, you're trolling. 

Don't come here and tell me I have no experience with women. I do. Just not the kind that fits your bill. 

I don't play by your rules. And here are my opinions. Take it or leave it. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

7 minutes ago, something_else said:

I agree with you on redpill for the most part, I just think you're also a bit naïve. There are nuggets of truth to redpill, but the ideology and a lot of the theory is toxic.

A lot of what women tell you they're attracted to and what they actually go for in guys is quite different. You will find that out when you actually try to attract girls instead of just talking to them casually.

As a guy it helps you a lot to have some of the 'alpha' traits redpill preaches, as well as the sensitivity and vulnerability that you're talking about. Women like men who have both. It's hard to build attraction with only sensitivity and vulnerability, but those traits are much better for building long term relationships once you've already established attraction.

You personally attack me again and I will report you. Learn the difference between a person and their opinion. There is such a thing as learning from observation. You don't have to burn your hand to know that fire is hot. 

[NoSelfSelf]

@mr_engineer @something_else you expressed yourself this will now go forever ?

[something_else]

7 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Don't come here and tell me I have no experience with women. I do. Just not the kind that fits your bill. 

Well most guys here define experience with women as relationships, deep connection, and sex. I don't really know how else you would define it.

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

There is such a thing as learning from observation.

Good luck learning to play baseball from observation.

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

You personally attack me again and I will report you

It just annoys me a bit that you present yourself as an authority with little experience. If you feel that is a personal attack, then feel free to report me.

Edited November 7, 2022 by something_else