Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Leo Gura Ok, but still Supreme Witness realization is absolutely crucial. Otherwise you may completely be lost in the experience. Or am I wrong?

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Leo Gura Ok, but still Supreme Witness realization is absolutely crucial. Otherwise you may completely be lost in the experience. Or am I wrong?

The Supreme Witness is just YOU. Of course you gotta awaken to that.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[StarStruck]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's way more tricky than that.

I'm talking about a consciousness which what you explained does not reach.

No normal Buddhist will reach it. Perhaps a few extremely genetically gifted ones will, but I wouldn't even bet on that. You're really gambling with your spirituality there.

So what are you suggesting

[Kuba Powiertowski]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

t's way more tricky than that.

I'm talking about a consciousness which what you explained does not reach.

No normal Buddhist will reach it. Perhaps a few extremely genetically gifted ones will, but I wouldn't even bet on that. You're really gambling with your spirituality there.

I'm only supposing that I may have a clue about what you are referring to. When a human says "everything," it is always a human's conception of "everything". Like with Infinity. Our human conceptions, nothing else. But it is possible as you have broken through or expanded out of boundaries of human experience, even in a multidimensional sense, you have reached the realization that is not comprehensible for human capacity. 

Anyway, the Buddhist approach is most welcome among some modern scientists and philosophers of the mind, as it reaches the point of ceasing even consciousness in ordinary meaning. Even some materialists are OK with this statement, in significant simplification, of course.

Almost every scientist working on the hard problem of consciousness is sure that during the deep sleep phase, there is no sign of activity of consciousness. 

There's a brilliant discussion between Rupert Spira, Bernardo Kastrup, and Christopher Koch on this subject:

I have found a way to realize Supreme Witness through lucid dreaming. Remaining in the so-called waking state, you are trying to catch this moment of switching/entering the so-called dream reality using deep breathing techniques. When you master this to some extent, you enter a "dream scenario" with more and more expressive outlines. You may visit the same place, meet the same beings, entities dream after dream. Actually, you are not resting but keep on playing a character in a different dimension. There is still activity, sometimes even more extensive than in a waking state. But then, suddenly, everything is dropped into some void, which is not a void. It's full of bliss. Then "you" rest properly. I was trying to catch this moment from inside a dream, but it's one paradoxical strange loop, like a wave trying to catch an ocean. Hilarious experience, anyway. I have found that dropping this activity is much more challenging in a waking state, so you need to tune into a meditative state.

And so I drifted in digressions; forgive me.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Perhaps a few extremely genetically gifted ones

Consider that you, too, are, experiencing an avatar that uniquely aligns with what I would call psychedelic energy.

[Leo Gura]

Guys, you're just going to have to trust me on this one: Buddhism is NOT God-Realization!

I cannot explain it to you. You will only understand when you're DEAD.

[Leo Gura]

Guys, you're just going to have to trust me on this one: Buddhism is NOT God-Realization!

I cannot explain it to you. You will only understand when you are INFINITY!

Buddhism is NOT INFINITY!

INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Kuba Powiertowski]

Relax, I'm not claiming anything. I wonder if Infinity can be understood. Can I ever understand God, me as God, or Supreme "I" as God? Understanding seems to be a never-ending process, from the point where human understanding has gotten so far. I already can smell paradox from here

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Leo Gura I don't know but maybe there is simpler explaination why some people who follows various buddhist schools, got stuck in some point. I assume that every "so called" spiritual path has stages. In meditation you go from being somebody / something to being nobody / nothing to being everybody / everything. When you stuck at "nobody / nothing" stage, you probably have not realized that there is still Supreme Witness of this nothingness. Otherwise nothingness wouldn't be known. Maybe that is the key here...

Yes.

What helped me here, since its always a question of definition (for example of the Supreme Witness):

• You are that which is aware. And the Totality of Reality itself, since it can only show up in that which is aware.
• But the Totality of Reality is often only seen as that which appears (The appearance side). And that can totally disappear (Deep Sleep), and the real you is still there, unaware of itself, but with a latent capacity for sentience if something appears again (the emptiness or consciousness/aware side). 

So the question is: How "empty" is the Supreme Witness.

• When it is so empty that no arisings/feeling (very subtle I-feelings/I-thoughts) arise and appear in the Totality (call it Reality, Infinite Consciousness, God, Dharmakaya, whatever you want), or you clearly see them all as objects/arisings/movements within you, then what you realize yourself to be very obviously is the Totality/Reality/Infinite Consciousness,... .
• The stage before that is the Supreme Witness, or Empty Witness: Ken Wilber calls that the Empty Witness: Personality, and especially time and space are already transcended, "you" feel the infinite reality as mere appearance, timeless. And always here. But there are still some clusters of sensations arising IN YOU that feel like individuality, or that you are not the unbounded whole, but a feeling of watching it appears in you. You are not all of it, the sensation of "other" still arise a lot in daily life, you dont feel that you what looks from all eyes is the same consciousness that gets clouded by feelings/thoughts of I/me, exactly like how it used to get clouded in you. The realization is neither stable, nor complete.
• And then at some point you realize that (learn to spot) these arisings/feelings/building blocks of the Supreme Witness or Empty Witness are still left and arising/moving in you. You learn to spot them in a sort of High-Speed-Analysis, recognize them as arisings/objects appearing within you, and you can stop them immediately (subject->object), or just watch them.
•  Then they drop, the Empty Witness drops, and the real you stays. But that is described by some as impersonal, a formulation that I am not totally happy with. Yes, its impersonal, its not the you you thought you were, but its the real you. And that real you "has" or "contains" the personal you moving in it. Then that boosts the nondual state, makes the whole world appear just as mere appearance, an imagined illusion, infinite, groundless, a mirage happening within you (that also starts before, but gets boosted a lot the more the Empty Witness drops). Pretty much a state that Psychedelics cause, but sobre. And with it comes happiness and bliss independend of what happens at that moment, which is the most beautiful aspect of it.

If you dont have nonduality and nonseparation and are not aware of the Ground of Being in normal life (while not meditating or tripping), these very subtle arisings/I-feelings/I-thoughts still arise in you and are not spotted with high enough speed to see them for what they are: Sensations of separation arising within the real you. In my experience, you can not force real Nonduality/mere appearance of the totality/world, its an energetic state that gets influenced "indirectly" over how fast you spot these I-thoughts/I-feelings. Here I am fully in line when Leo says you need the right state (of enought nonduality, illusion-like mere appearance of the world, directly feeling it all as mere empty consciousness appearance mirage-arising).

When you spot these subtle arisings (building blocks of the separate self and even Empty Witness) fast enough, they arise in you. But you can't force it with willpower, that would be what Daniel Brown in Pointing out the Great Way calls "artifical activity" during the stage of Nonmeditation Yoga (last stage of the 4 Mahamudra stages). It becomes automatic once you understand it at that stage. Its one of the Illusion-Mechanism of Maya that you can't force your way through it with willpower, but you can do it indirectly with understanding how to rest in your true nature. The energetic state of nonduality follows. Its some kind of positive feedback loop, sloping "upwards" if done correctly. I agree with Leo that Nonduality (which ripens) is in its early stages not realization of Ultimate Reality. Daniel Brown for example also. But realization of Ultimate Reality has to be nondual, since its a unity and infinite. And this development can pretty easily stagnate (especially before nonduality even begins to start), and stop if you do something incorrect, or understand something incorrect. Which pretty much happens with 99% of Buddhists. 

So the separate you disappears, but the real you as Awareness AND the Reality/World stays. So the Illusion-You disappears, but the real you is of course, as always, there. It can not "not be there". That is the Unborn, Reality itself. The real you.

And in that area/stage definitions of different authors and traditions get very slippery, since these "feelings" of the Supreme Witness (as you intuit) are very very subtle, and its very easy to identify with them and not notice it.

Over the years, I ended up with a metaphor for myself: Zen is like  axe to cut a tree. Very robust, works if you do it long enough hard enough pretty foolproof, doesnt need a lot complex theory/stages, but normally takes a long time and is not so pleasant (and in practice for most doesnt deliver the final results, because it takes extreme willpower). More sophisticated versions of Buddhism, with a more detailed map, like Mahamudra/Dzogchen (see for example Brown, Pointing out the Great Way), are like a Forest Harvester: If used correctly very fast, quite pleasant (for the user, probably not for the forest) and comfortable along the path, but quite hard to understand and learn, since language is so slippery in these areas. Like if you want to use a Forest Harvester, and if you dont get explained how it works (like put gas in it, how to drive it, its controls), delivers no result at all.

• Zen = robust, sit long enough with a Koan and you get it, not much to misunderstand, but neither very fast nor pleasant
• Mahamudra/Dzogchen = very sophisticated with techniques and details and pointing out descriptions for every stage, but if used incorrectly (like not putting as into forest harvester) no result at all even if you do it a long time.

Some Material for that stage I found useful:

1) Massaro, Spiritual Conversations with a Skeptic:

"Imagine a formless, space-like void that's indestructible, sentient, awake, alive and aware, but has no form. You could almost say it has no self
awareness. It just is. Russell: So wait... A void? A vacuum? Nothing?
Bentinho: Yes. Just imagine it.
Russell: OK, go ahead.
Bentinho: The point of the analogy is that there is no object. Imagine infinite space with no stars or planets. Suddenly, you introduce a toy; let's say a water pistol. Or it could be a body even. But let's say... Russell: An object.
Bentinho: Yeah, an object. A water pistol.
Russell: With water in it.
Bentinho: Maybe with Coca-Cola in it.
Russell: With Coca-Cola in it. OK.
Bentinho: Ah! Now there is something. Something is created. First there is this space, which is like the pure subject with no reference points. It's like
space, but it's not actually space. Russell: Wait... where am I in relation to this infinite space?
Bentinho: You are it.
Russell: I am it?
Bentinho: Yes.
Russell: OK. But there is nothing in it at first.
Bentinho: Correct. There is nothing in it at all; there is just Infinity.
Russell: But I am in it.
Bentinho: You are it.

"

2) How other perspectives/beings work:

A Human is aware of only his perspective (normally). But Infinite Consciousness can forget in time (what did you do exactly one year ago), or to be more precice NOT imagine that memory, and it can forget in space (metaphor of Francis Lucille).

To get an idea watch the cover of this book of Marc Leavitt. Notice the hyperbolic geometry of the awareness fields shown. Reality is made of perspectives (Ken Wilber, Concept of Indras Net). Reality is a giant mind (Leo, and more or less all traditions).

https://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Behind-Scenes-Marc-Leavitt/dp/1495398218

3) How to Approach Phenomenal Consciousness, Jac O'keeffe. She calls Ultimate Reality Totality Primary Consciousness

"the  fundamental primary phenomenal consciousness (her name for Ultimate Reality, Infinite Consciousness, the real you), it has a capacity. It doesn't even know  itself here. However, it has a capacity  to show up with a sense of emptiness (a subtle arising feeling/perception happening in you). To show  up as one. To show up as a one who can reflect  on itself and recognize that it is, and we  have the concept of existence. And it can  go from that sense of vast spaciousness and that  unified field into time, which appears as a dot. "

"We're left with consciousness (-> Primary Consciousness) that cannot know  itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually  can't know itself. However, it is known.  You can drop back there and it is known,  but you can't bring yourself there  or your capacities to know it.  It's almost like it's so fundamental  that it can't turn around and see itself.   It doesn't see itself. That's too much  movement (arisings, objects, subtle I-feelings/I-thoughts, not fully empty/infinite). That's movement such as space,  time and identification and me, myself, I,  and the building of my movie that happens"

Here she describes how Primary Consciousness is so empty that it cant turn around to see itself. Because that turning around would already be a movement, a arising, a subtle object within Primary consciousness/Real you.

4) Stephen Wolinsky, or how Empty is your Empty Witness or Supreme Witness:

from Wolinsky, Nothing Comes From Nothing

" Knowing or being aware of or consciousness of who you are is “one step” away from being who you are. This is why the Buddha said, “You might not necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment.

Why? Because there is no aware-er or awareness or knower or knowingness, to be aware of or know or know about or be conscious of the Absolute. And why Lakshamann Joo said, “Whenever you perceive something, you perceive it from one level lower.” (remark: You can never see the Absolute Reality/Consciousness, cause looking or searching for it is a movement of attention WITHIN IT. But you can understand it, be it, intuit it, from one level lower. The Supreme Witness is one of the last movements IN YOU/Reality looking for absolute consciousness, inducing an experience of it, which of course is not it because it is you).

Paradoxically As the Absolute there is no Absolute If the “I” or “you” “has an “experience” and believes it IS consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or that it IS an “imagined” infinity, then the “I” or “you” mistakenly assumes and projects that experience upon the Absolute.

Once that occurs the “I” or “you” then completely believes and ergo experiences that the Absolute also has or IS the experience of consciousness has or IS the experience of awareness has or IS the experience of infinite potential has or IS the experience of presence has or IS the experience of an “imagined” infinite.

Consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite are the most subtle of the most subtle states and veils which give the illusion of awareness, the illusion of consciousness the illusion of presence and the illusion of both beingness and being conscious. This “experiential belief” of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity, is an anthropomorphically projected experience of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity. Thus giving the illusionary experience of awareness, the illusionary experience of consciousness the illusionary experience of presence and the illusionary experience of both beingness and being conscious.

Which are then Superimposed on the Absolute Nothingness. Simply stated, the experience of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity is an experience. This experience gives the illusion of a beingness, isness or existence to these temporary subtle veils and experiences which are made of nothing. The Absolute is without the Absolute Nothingness

"

5) Prior to Nonduality Youtube-Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g

 

Mechanisms of Creation/Imagination/Manifestation:

Its important and nice to find out HOW you imagine this world with all of its infinite mechanism. And the first and fundamental mechanisms on how imagination/manifestation (in any universe/dimension) can occur can be understood (for example how the fundamental archetypes of space and time (giving "objects" or appearances that change in time), and the first "movements" (even if they are formless) of appearances in consciousness  are spawned out from the Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That is for example described by Ken Wilber as the manifestation of the first Archetypes at the causal stage (he calls it low causal, while high causal being the empty ultimate Godhead).

But since Reality/Spirit/God is able to manifest/imagine infinite Worlds, with totally different mechanism than our universe for example, by definition one will never be able to understand all of their mechanisms, since you dont have access to all Realities (and you couldnt while being human). And you can never explore all of them, by definition of what Infinity means.  That is what God/Reality itself is exploring. Leo mentioned that in "Outrageous Experiments In Consciousness - 30 Awakenings In 30 Days.", there are infinite dimensions of awakening. Which is, as mentioned, quite shocking.

But for sure its nice and important to grasp the fundamental mechanism of imagination/manifestation, which apply to all universes/dimensions (since all are appearances), and understanding that in your deepest being you are that one Reality. I believe these fundamentals are important to understand and realize and experience. Else "you" are stuck with believing experiencing Nonduality or Emptiness is it, while that is only the start to realize Infinity. 

And you can of course realize the Groud of Being, your true nature.

But one can never explore all mechanism of manifestation, since a human in its limited time can never explore all realms of manifestation (and there are for examples according to Jac O'Keffee and Stephen Wolinsky some truly alien realms that are not build with the building blocks of this Universe. Yet they are also only appearances).

So at some level one either says "Its details, and one can never explore all mechanism of manifestation, because even for God/Absolute Reality there are Infinite Realms of Appearances/Worls/Universes to explore", or it is a grasping for seeing as much as possible. Which is a high level recipe for nevery finding the constant peace/happiness independend of outer circumstances, the hallmark of the enlightened ones, and also nevery fully resting it. Maya is awe-inspiring, and her Illusion-Mechanisms (which are necessary for this Lila) go to the highest level also.

But understanding the fundamental mechanism of how manifestation/imagination occurs, how you fool yourself (Maya), what ultimate Reality/God/Spirit is, what other is, how Maya works, what one really is and how one imagines otherwise, that is all essential. And of course humanity will go exploring all of that (manifestation/imagination mechanisms, mechanisms of Maya, "going Psychonaut" and exploring it, exploring Ken Wilbers subtle and low causal realms and mapping them. He even said in the next 1000 years probably many new substages will show up and getting formed & described during exploration). This understanding will grow. Buddhism has evolved in the past, there is not even one Buddhism, there are many different streams, some more developed/sophisticated/efficient than others. I don't think Buddhism will disappear, so it will change and evolve by definition. Buddhism happens in Infinity, not the other way round.

And to conclude:

I hope this is interesting and helpful for some of you. It took me a long time to understand why there are so many, often contradicting statements in the spiritual traditions/teachers/psychonautic explorers, and how Reality is structured (and the differing perspectives & statements it supports and brings forth on various stages/states) to enable and support all of these differing perspectives, experiences and viewpoints. For sure, this picture isn't complete, but at least for me tells a story that for me is sufficient to continue my practice in peace and enjoy what it brings into my life, be able to sort all these often conflicting messages in a large and hopefully integral perspective, and stay interested in how Reality is structured that all of that can appear in it (the psychonaut approach). 

And of course its nearly impossible to communicate all of that in language. In case anybody has read all of the above until here: A metaphor that, if I remember correctly, also Ken Wilber once used:

Zen would deliver the much more precise summary, which is why I also like Zen a lot:

The old pond,

A frog jumps in:

Plop!

Matsuo Basho (1644-1694) 

[Thought Art]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Guys, you're just going to have to trust me on this one: Buddhism is NOT God-Realization!

I cannot explain it to you. You will only understand when you are INFINITY!

Buddhism is NOT INFINITY!

INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! 

 

Can confirm, I’m reading a book on the heart of Buddha’s teachings. So far it seems the central teaching of the Buddha how more to do with life, suffering and living well. 
 

Though I’ve seen a video that Buddhist’s used to contemplate infinity and orders of infinity.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

None of that is God-Realization.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Leo Gura Question arises: is there anything like Full God-Realization, where God's Core - Infinite Uncoditional Love is never ending perpetum mobile of creation / exploration / manifestation?

[Kuba Powiertowski]

The next question is: why one do need such realization or feeling(?) of this kind? Out of what such a need is born? Curiosity, suffering, mix of many tendencies? Maybe realization that Supreme Witness is capable of creating things which are far beyond human imagination and comprehension points out that human experience is only one among many, infinitely many?

[Leo Gura]

God can be whatever you imagine it to be. God is your imagination.

You are imagining everything in every possible way.

Leo is your own Imagination. One day you'll get it.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Kuba Powiertowski]

But even that does not set you free from experiencing being human. Only acceptance of everything that is. This acceptance expands you to the point where another question can be asked: are you still a human??

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

The next question is: why one do need such realization or feeling(?) of this kind? Out of what such a need is born? Curiosity, suffering, mix of many tendencies? Maybe realization that Supreme Witness is capable of creating things which are far beyond human imagination and comprehension points out that human experience is only one among many, infinitely many?

or how about this, related to your video on question of what is consciousness.   How can something exist if you aren't conscious of it?  In other words, if reality is Cosnciousness, which one can discover it is directly, then you being conscious of something, and reality (consciousness) are one in the  same.  There cannot exist anything independent of consciousness, and when we say consciousness, we are saying You, as the Supreme.    If you watch Leo's video on what is Perception, you can get a good hit of this.   The ego has co-opted consciousness for itself, so the human experience is actually Consciousness.  

[Kuba Powiertowski]

I sincerely feel that you have reached / touched this understanding. Maybe not only you here. Seriously. Me - not. But even from mine POV existence is still fascinating on so many levels and this is what keeps me going??

[Thought Art]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

None of that is God-Realization.

You talkin ta me?

not sure but 

that makes sense to me 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thought Art

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Inliytened1 Yes , of course. But my question is: how can something that is limited to localized perception of being human, realize being infinite? I am not talking about this deep sense of oneness. For such realization Consciousness must drop its ego cage - it might be hallucinated, doesn't matter. No matter how small these limitations might be hallucinated - they all must be broken. You must awaken completely. But are you still a human then?

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Inliytened1 Yes , of course. But my question is: how can something that is limited to localized perception of being human, realize being infinite? I am not talking about this deep sense of oneness. For such realization Consciousness must drop its ego cage - it might be hallucinated, doesn't matter. No matter how small these limitations might be hallucinated - they all must be broken. You must awaken completely. But are you still a human then?

by realizing it.  when we say realize, we are not talking conceptual.  We are talking being it.  Realizing and Being are the same here.  You will become Infinite.  You as Consciousness will expand.   For me i was able to see that everything is geing held within the Mind of God, which is none other than my mind.   But yeah something just clicks when the realization happens.  It is mystical.   it is death of the human.  You will die as an ego, and there is no difference between that death and what we traditionally think of as "physical death".  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Inliytened1