Identification awakening

[Salvijus]

@Leo Gura So maybe it's a matter of wording? Perhaps you're using the word absolute in the different meaning then most teachers.

I believe nothingness is absolute, and never changing and perfect. Everything else is a flux. It comes from nothingness. The source of all things is nothingness. Thus changeful reality is not essential to what I am. Because when change happens in my essential nature nothing ever happens. Nothing ever happens to nothingness. Even if the entire creation would cease, nothingness would remain the same, thus it's absolute and changful reality is temporary and not essential to me. This makes sense to me at least.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Leo Gura So maybe it's a matter of wording? Perhaps you're using the word absolute in the different meaning then most teachers.

No, there is an important insight you're missing here that I am communicating.

And what I am saying does not contradict the highest teachers/teachings. You have been told by the best teachers that form = formlessness.

You just lack the direct experience necessary to properly understand the teachers/teachings.

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I believe nothingness is absolute, and never changing and perfect. Everything else is a flux. It comes from nothingness. The source of all things is nothingness. Thus changeful reality is not essential to what I am.

Yeah, I know your position. And I am telling you that's an incomplete realization.

A dog taking a shit on the sidewalk is essential to what you are. It's crucial that you see Yourself and the Absolute in that shitting dog. That is the whole point of spirituality!

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Because when change happens in my essential nature nothing ever happens. Nothing ever happens to nothingness.

Again, you are holding a subtle duality here between Nothingness vs somethingness & change. To truly realize Nothingness is to realize that Nothingness is ever-changing Everythingness.

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Even if the entire creation would cease, nothingness would remain the same

The entire Creation is Nothingness, even as it is changing.

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thus it's absolute and changful reality is temporary and not essential to me. This makes sense to me at least.

And thereby you have separated yourself and God from change.

Your position is silly because you say You/God are everything, except change is something "other" that has nothing to do with you. You ARE change. God is change. Nothingness is change.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

I don't know of any enlightened being who would bother to pursue God realisation...

Luckily, the only being who can pursue God-realization is you

[Salvijus]

@Leo Gura 

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But to truly realize Nothingness is to realize that Nothingness is ever-changing everythingness.

That's nice. I get this actually. 

 

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The entire Creation is Nothingness, even as it is changing.

Yeah it's true. It's true. 

I agree with everything you sayed I forgot what we're debating about ?

The only thing I would put it differently is the wording. I wouldn't call changing impermenant reality - eternal. By definition it doesn't make sense to me. "Every moment is eternal even if it is fluid" yeah but it is nothingness that is eternal not the dancing energy. Dancing energy is temporary. That would be my only difference in percepective. 

Edit. And yes dancing energy is also nothingness because it comes from nothingness. And are of the same nature. It is one. But somehow it is not eternal. Because by definition if it is changing it is impermenant and not eternal.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I wouldn't call changing impermenant reality - eternal. By definition it doesn't make sense to me.

And that is precisely where you are wrong.

This is not a word game.

You are not conscious that impermanence is eternal. And I am pointing that out to you so you don't miss it.

You're welcome

I want to see the look on your face the day you realize that that dog shitting on the sidewalk is Eternal.

There is nothing outside of God and there is nothing outside of Eternity.

[Salvijus]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I want to see the look on your face the day you realize that that dog shitting on the sidewalk is Eternal.

You're welcome

Lol ? 

I still think it's a word game ? yes I can say poo is eternal because energy is eternal. E=mc^2. Nothing ever dies. Everything is energy and that energy is god. Everything is god. Nothing ever dies. Energy never dissapears it just changes form. And the energy itself is always eternal. That way it make sense.

To me this is just a wording problem. I feel buddhists are talking about the same thing just in a different language and I wanted to fight for their side a little bit to leverage the field  i find your criticism of budhhism to be a bit unfair sometimes. To me "I am nothing" and "I am everything" means exacly the same thing. 

Edit. Nothingness is also energy. A primordial energy. Everything is energy. Everything is god. Everything is eternal.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Salvijus

[Tim R]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I still think it's a word game

Of course you do - gotta stop thinking 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

To me this is just a wording problem.

If it was just a wording problem I would not be talking about it.

I'm not here to waste your time in pedantic debates about spiritual teachings.

4 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura The Being-you/me or the one that's not actually there?

God is always right there

[Salvijus]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If it was just a wording problem I would not be talking about it.

But that's what is happening i believe. I think one day you'll realize everybody was telling the same thing you do except in a different language. Saying "I'm nothing" is very appropriate teaching which is equally as true as saying "I'm everything". But you seem to fight over "I'm everything" stance as the only true perspective even tho to say "everything is nothing" is exacly the same statement. So it's just a word game in the end. And unfair criticism of many schools for using different wording i believe.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

So why does a part of this called God realisation matter more than any other manifestation of God?

What matters is that you realize you are God

[Someone here]

@Leo Gura there is no self tho. Its an important facet of Awakening. I'm not saying I'm fully awake. Because obviously there are other facets that I need to realize. But I'm satisfied with where I am at now because I am battling addiction and anxiety. This realization helps me understand the problem with discipline. 

What's the problem with discipline?? 

Short answer.. Because there is no one who can be disciplined or not disciplined.  That's the root cause for all our failures to be disciplined in life.  Who is being disciplined or lazy??  No one.     If there is a center of your being "ego" who is the creator or source of thoughts and actions.. You won't have a single problem with being disciplined in life.. Why would you?  If you are the source of everything you do and think.. There is no possibility of failing at losing weight or kicking any bad habit.  But since it's not "you" who is creating your thoughts and actions.. The results are always random as random as these thoughts and actions.   

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Leo Gura there is no self tho. Its an important facet of Awakening.

Sure. Fair enough.

12 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura Why?  I'd rather realise that this right here is enough, complete, divine, one....than chase after a short-lived experience.

Doesn't sound like you are conscious that you are God.

[Tim R]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

18 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

Why?  I'd rather realise that this right here is enough, complete, divine, one....than chase after a short-lived experience.

Doesn't sound like you are conscious that you are God.

Oh come on Leo, do you know how arrogant that sounds? So what she's not conscious of herself as God? What's wrong with being content with not being conscious of it? Don't give me the same answer now

[Adamq8]

56 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Leo Gura there is no self tho. Its an important facet of Awakening. I'm not saying I'm fully awake. Because obviously there are other facets that I need to realize. But I'm satisfied with where I am at now because I am battling addiction and anxiety. This realization helps me understand the problem with discipline. 

What's the problem with discipline?? 

Short answer.. Because there is no one who can be disciplined or not disciplined.  That's the root cause for all our failures to be disciplined in life.  Who is being disciplined or lazy??  No one.     If there is a center of your being "ego" who is the creator or source of thoughts and actions.. You won't have a single problem with being disciplined in life.. Why would you?  If you are the source of everything you do and think.. There is no possibility of failing at losing weight or kicking any bad habit.  But since it's not "you" who is creating your thoughts and actions.. The results are always random as random as these thoughts and actions.   

Come on man.. what are you actually saying?

You can surely discipline and change your behaviour, I have been deep into addiction and ive became free from it by perseverence and DISCIPLINE and through doing good and asking for forgiveness for your own sake and being aware of the consequenses of my actions.

TAKE RESPONSEBILITY FOR YOUR ACTION!

USE YOUR GOD GIVEN WILL!

A transformation is messy and you will fuck up more then once but just know that it is part of the journey, you have the power to change, to do better, meditation is valueable in that it clearly shows the ephemeral nature of thought and how it appears, but that does not mean that they are random or useless, they bring meaning and are CREATIVE. It is LOGOS.

Just dont take yourself too seriously, and learn to let go when it is needed, but use thought when it is needed as well.

Know thyself, know your pitfalls etc, learn your triggers.

It is a question of habit with regards to addiction etc, thought patterns which trigger emotions and memory etc.

Do not surrender your power is all I am saying, since you are a powerful creator made in the image of God, honor it, use the tools that you have been given.

It is possible to free yourself from the bondage of addiction and anxiety but it does not necessarily entail that you have to think that thoughts are random and you dont exist etc.

A murderer might have a thought about killing someone and actually acting upon it while another might have the thought about killing someone but will never act upon it, can we say that the murderer should be free instead of in jail because it was just random thoughts appearing and he had no say in the manner?

NO!

Thought is creative but it is YOU AS ACTUALITY WHICH MADE THE THOUGHT POSSIBLE AND REAL and can manifest it, or else they go back to the field of potentiality.

As I said, you form potentiality into actuality.

But it is good to know that you have the power also to let go of thoughts and not make a big deal out of it.

 

 

 

 

[Someone here]

@Adamq8 no worries. I'm not falling into victim mindset. I'm taking full responsibility and I'm actually making progress and Improvementson my anxiety and addiction. 

Thank you ?

[Leo Gura]

41 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

there's a risk if you're still identified with the ego and then you go on and believe you are god

Of course there is such a risk.

[Adamq8]

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Adamq8 no worries. I'm not falling into victim mindset. I'm taking full responsibility and I'm actually making progress and Improvementson my anxiety and addiction. 

Thank you ?

I am happy to hear that ? if it works keep going 

[Salvijus]

23 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura So wouldn't it be better to first realise that the ego is illusory...and then what? Who or what would want or need god realisation? There'll be Being, as whatever is, as itself. No need for some special God state, cause God is right here (and it'd be realised in seeing that there is no separate self).

The point is when one realizes that ego is illusory, total disidentification happens and limited identity gets replaced with infinity. So you can't have an ego trancendence without nondual infinite consciouness happening with it. They go together. Realisation that ego is illusory requires enourmous increase in conciousness also. Otherwise it's just intelectual.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Salvijus

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, Judy2 said:

I'm just saying there's a risk if you're still identified with the ego and then you go on and believe you are god, from an ego pov. 

?It would be sort of like if JK Rowling got really absorbed in writing harry Potter and forgot that she wasn't herself the author, but was in fact Harry Potter. But then after remembering herself as the author, she writes a JK Rowling character with her name and face and personality but with magical powers INTO the book, thinking THAT character is then who she is. It misses the real magic of the Author.

Edited January 25, 2022 by mandyjw

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura So wouldn't it be better to first realise that the ego is illusory

That will automatically happen along the way towards God.

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...and then what?

And then you're still not Awake.

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Who or what would want or need god realisation?

The God that you are but isn't Awake yet.

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There'll be Being, as whatever is, as itself. No need for some special God state, cause God is right here (and it'd be realised in seeing that there is no separate self).

No, that's still not it. You're missing the elephant in the room.

You're not gonna talk your way out of this.