Sage Mode

[Taavi]

@Frogfucius Do you want new experiences, explore the possibilities?

Do you want to learn new ways how to conduct yourself?

Do you want for your psyche to grow?

Do you want to grow?

If yes, then there is no end point, there is always something more to thrive towards, new things to learn, new nuances to discern. You know, the "egoic" things. 

If you do not wish for those things then the 7/11 example is fine. It all comes down to what you want. Stagnation rules out a healthy psyche and a rich life.

16 minutes ago, Frogfucius said:

Life is life - why put layers of concepts and bullshit and think it's the best way to live?

Because the content of lives is different. A movie is a movie, but watching a pleasurable movie is a lot more enjoyable then watching the grass grow at 144p and no sound for 70 years. Unless you are into that sort of stuff.

[Martin123]

@smd  Rali is far from enlightened imo. Where did you get that? 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Martin123

[Frogfucius]

1 hour ago, smd said:

I don't think even enlightened people would be content with working at 7/11.  Rali over at Naked Reality states he is enlightened and his purpose of producing Naked Reality is for the purpose of making a lot of money.  However, without a collected body of knowledge, other than some details about getting enlightened, what else would you teach?   The enlightened guy working at 7/11 doesn't contribute to humanity.  It's a life of self-imposed poverty with long-term health and money issues.  Overall, I think it doesn't matter if you are enlightened or not, there will be necessary reasons to live a life with higher quality.   Also, it seems you think that being enlightened is an endpoint, whereas I think that's just the beginning.   I'm not even sure such an enlightened person exists: one that works at 7/11, unless that is a job in retirement after a life lived doing something else.

You still believe in "quality of life" and "contributing to humanity" and "self-imposed poverty", as if those have any merit in how one should live their lives. In one of the most extreme examples, Eckhart Tolle lived as a bum for years after his "awakening". It wasn't until later in his life that he translate his experiences into some kind of guidance for people who are clueless. Yes, comforts are nice to have, and desires are fine. But when you attach labels and meanings to any kind of desire or action, that's when the problem of ego arises.

And with this, there's no more to discuss with you. As long as you're grasping at concepts and illusions, you're not living in reality, but a limited projection of the world around you. So be it.

1 hour ago, Taavi said:

@Frogfucius Do you want new experiences, explore the possibilities?

Do you want to learn new ways how to conduct yourself?

Do you want for your psyche to grow?

Do you want to grow?

If yes, then there is no end point, there is always something more to thrive towards, new things to learn, new nuances to discern. You know, the "egoic" things. 

If you do not wish for those things then the 7/11 example is fine. It all comes down to what you want. Stagnation rules out a healthy psyche and a rich life.

Because the content of lives is different. A movie is a movie, but watching a pleasurable movie is a lot more enjoyable then watching the grass grow at 144p and no sound for 70 years. Unless you are into that sort of stuff.

I never claimed I didn't have desires. Again, desires alone are fine. But when you attach labels to things and start categorizing things in some kind of hierarchy, that's when the problem of ego arises. Like thinking someone is inferior than you because they're not a sage (and let's face it, looking down on the 7/11 guy and saying he doesn't live a comfortable life is doing just that), or thinking that some mystic is living a grander life than the rest of humanity. More projections, more thoughts, no reality. If you want to feed the hungry, then feed the hungry. There needs to be nothing more said about it.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Frogfucius

[Martin123]

@Leo Gura Would you please lock this topic. I created this topic as a joke for fellow people who are familiar with Naruto, it got kinda obnoxious.

[Taavi]

@Frogfucius Desire = something more important then something else due to desiring it = label of importance  = hierachy of things = the way you function in this world.

Thinking that someone is inferior in the malicious self righteous way is not the same then recognizing that his quality of life is not as enjoyable as it could be. 

When you see an insane person banging his head against a tree while clearly showing signs of being in agony you can aknowledge the fact that his life is not as good as it could be. Well, in the case of untreatable  insanity maybe the quality of his life could not be better but it sure could be for the guy working at 7/11. 

If the guy from 7/11 would become a mystic and then would be presented a choice of going back to working at 7/11 and forgeting all the knowledge and experience he had gained, do you think he would do that?

[Frogfucius]

1 hour ago, Taavi said:

@Frogfucius Desire = something more important then something else due to desiring it = label of importance  = hierachy of things = the way you function in this world.

Thinking that someone is inferior in the malicious self righteous way is not the same then recognizing that his quality of life is not as enjoyable as it could be. 

When you see an insane person banging his head against a tree while clearly showing signs of being in agony you can aknowledge the fact that his life is not as good as it could be. Well, in the case of untreatable  insanity maybe the quality of his life could not be better but it sure could be for the guy working at 7/11. 

If the guy from 7/11 would become a mystic and then would be presented a choice of going back to working at 7/11 and forgeting all the knowledge and experience he had gained, do you think he would do that?

Desire is not the way you function in this world. When you cling to desire, that's how you suffer. The way you function is by eating, drinking water, excreting, sleeping, and then eventually dying. All natural inputs that have no effect by desire. A plant, a cat, a bacterium... They don't cling to desires. They intake their energy and nutrients, until they can no longer renew their bodies, and die.

Labeling "quality of life" is more bs beliefs. There are primitive tribes out there that enjoy their extremely simplistic way of life, and refuse to integrate into our modern world. Check out the tribes in the Amazon - they're aware of the modern world, but they don't see the need to change. Their "quality of life", which is a term coined by egotistical societies, may not be high in regard to how our society measures it, but look at how much mental suffering goes on in so-called highly developed countries. Mental illness is rampant, even with our comfortable lives. How we live isn't the problem, it's our beliefs. Want to know how dangerous beliefs in ideologies can be? Just check out racism, sexism, or any kind of religious/political war.

If the 7/11 man is fed, has his bodily health, and doesn't cling to desire or beliefs...then what's the issue, again? At least he's not preaching some holier than thou stance and pretending he's making the world a better place, all in the name to serve his ego. The man who does that may not think he's serving his ego, but that's exactly what he's doing. He's fooling himself.

1 hour ago, Martin123 said:

@Leo Gura Would you please lock this topic. I created this topic as a joke for fellow people who are familiar with Naruto, it got kinda obnoxious.

My bad little homey, didn't mean to derail your joke topic. Just wanted a place to retort to Leo, and didn't want to create my own topic, so I saw this joke topic and thought "Why not?" Yeah, go ahead and close it. There's nothing really to discuss here. If you think I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Oh well.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Frogfucius

[Bebop]

@Frogfucius While I agree with you that Leo goes overboard with his assumptions sometimes, hes only doing it because of the results he has gotten in his own life. Don't forget that this is a personal development forum and most people here I would assume are trying to aim for the highest version of themselves. You misinterpreted his 7/11 example as well, he never said anything bad about working at 7/11 only that if you don't develop real world skills you will end up working a mediocre job that you might not be passionate about. I would stop nitpicking his words and start understanding his message or you are gonna get lost my friend 

[Frogfucius]

@Bebop There's no sugar coating it, my friend. You can fool yourself, but you can't fool me. The ethereal mystique of a sage/guru is sexy as fuck. It's not hard to get hooked on that swagger.

Like I said, I understand he's in the business. That's well understood. Doesn't mean I can't calls it as I sees it. Don't agree? Oh well, I'm entertained.

[kyle barnett]

Why become Hokage when you can become King of the pirates like me !!

[kurt]

The hillarious irony of it is, hes not aware that hes projecting those values onto those people.  There are no sages, a sage doest even see anyone as any different to himself.

Leo has been snookered by his own projection and is now setting off on a mission to actualize it.

How very UN sage-like

[Martin123]

@kurt Umm just to clarify what you're saying.
Every goal you create for yourself is a projection - we can agree on that.
What the fuck is un-sage like, ironic and hilarious about that?
Are sages not allowed to have projections? GOod lord, you can't survive without projections.


edit: 
If you stop the car when there's a red light, that is you projecting onto reality.

I feel like many people get this notion of: OMG MUST NOT PROJECT AAAAAAA
Like what the fuck no, same with thought and meditation =D. Meditation is to observe your thoughts, not "STOP THOUGHT"
Becoming aware of projections serves as a tool of becoming aware how we distort reality in ways that don't serve us at all.
Nothing wrong with projection in essence.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Martin123

[kurt]

@Martin123 You dont understand what Im actually saying,

Those "traits" of a sage Leo mentioned in his video dont belong to the sages, they belong to Leo.  These are Leos delusions that he is projecting on those people.  The people hes speaking of he does not atctully know first hand, hes filtering his knowledge of them through myths and projections that other "projecting average joes" have presented these people in the light of.

All the "character traits" of these sages were not actually inherent in these people, they are projections that bystanders put onto the person because the sages "seemed" God like, or better, or holier because the average joe projects meaning where there is none.  Sages actually just seem more developed because they are just as comfortable with themselves and their own faults.

Once you awaken you see that everything you thought was in others was a projection of your own subjective values.  These values are delusions, they dont actually exist!

Thats the joke that you will wake up to.  There are no sages, there are just wankers and dolls.  Were all the same.

 

[Bebop]

@kurt While that is true the purpose of what he is trying to do is reach the highest aspirations of the human vessel, after all what else is there do while we are here 

[Martin123]

@kurt I understand that, I do.
To me there are 2 levels to existence.
1. The level where you project, you make assumptions and you conceptualize, and live in concepts.
2. You are. You observe. You enjoy all as it is, you do not manipulate. TRUe BEING

These 2 are not at conflict. You are describing the first level, the second level however is the essence of the sage. It is the essence of all, you cannot undo being. 
But does it not allow to talk in concepts? On the contrary. It becomes obvious  to you that "level 2" is literally impossible to communicate. 
You can only communicate level 2 through level 1, but never illustrate its full essence. (If you have bit of an imagination, someone who lives in 3D reality cannot communicate what depth is to someone in 2D reality, in one of my fun processes I imagine enlightenment being the 4D, undescribeable from 3D). 

Character traits of sage - What is that?
Language
Concept
Idea
Imagination
Memory
- all within the first level

Is it necessary to have this concept in becoming a sage-like character? Probably not. Is it possible to have them and still become a sage? Why not? It does not disturb the second paradigm. 
Of course when you're unaware of this mechanism, you become a slave to your concepts, thoughts and ideas.
But I think We should not underestimate Leo by saying he's unaware of his ideas of being a sage.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Martin123

[kurt]

2 minutes ago, Bebop said:

@kurt While that is true the purpose of what he is trying to do is reach the highest aspirations of the human vessel, after all what else is there do while we are here 

For you it certainly seems as if there is a highest potential or aspiration.  This is a delusion.  You can strive for it all you want as an ego, but nobody has ever got there because these are just relative concepts.  In fact, the more you believe in this and the more you strive, the more insane you are, because only the really sick people actually buy into this stuff.

[Bebop]

@kurt What I meant was finding the true nature of reality and everything there is to know about it, of course there is nothing to achieve here. There is nothing serious about this work but the very nature of how this all came about has always fascinated me, maybe I am crazy but I find the fact that I don't exist very liberating as I am free to do as I please

[kurt]

15 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@kurt I understand that, I do.
To me there are 2 levels to existence.
1. The level where you project, you make assumptions and you conceptualize, and live in concepts.
2. You are. You observe. You enjoy all as it is, you do not manipulate. TRUe BEING

These 2 are not at conflict. You are describing the first level, the second level however is the essence of the sage. It is the essence of all, you cannot undo being. 
But does it not allow to talk in concepts? On the contrary. It becomes obvious  to you that "level 2" is literally impossible to communicate. 
You can only communicate level 2 through level 1, but never illustrate its full essence. (If you have bit of an imagination, someone who lives in 3D reality cannot communicate what depth is to someone in 2D reality, in one of my fun processes I imagine enlightenment being the 4D, undescribeable from 3D). 

Character traits of sage - What is that?
Language
Concept
Idea
Imagination
Memory
- all within the first level

Is it necessary to have this concept in becoming a sage-like character? Probably not. Is it possible to have them and still become a sage? Why not? It does not disturb the second paradigm. 
Of course when you're unaware of this mechanism, you become a slave to your concepts, thoughts and ideas.
But I think We should not underestimate Leo by saying he's unaware of his ideas of being a sage.

Martin, you dont understand enlightenment.  There is only one reality, you can chose to remain in your dream and become the sick persons ideal of what they projected onto these apparent "sages" or you can actually become a real sage (a normal person) and wake up out of the delusion.  You cant be a delusional sage, thats silly.  You cant have a neurotic Buddha.

 

[kurt]

1 hour ago, Bebop said:

@kurt What I meant was finding the true nature of reality and everything there is to know about it, of course there is nothing to achieve here. There is nothing serious about this work but the very nature of how this all came about has always fascinated me, maybe I am crazy but I find the fact that I don't exist very liberating as I am free to do as I please

Youre an idiot  

Edited December 11, 2016 by kurt

[Bebop]

33 minutes ago, kurt said:

Martin, you dont understand enlightenment.  There is only one reality, you can chose to remain in your dream and become the sick persons ideal of what they projected onto these apparent "sages" or you can actually become a real sage (a normal person) and wake up out of the delusion.  You cant be a delusional sage, thats silly.  You cant have a neurotic Buddha.

 

I think you are projecting too much here, I'm pretty sure he's aware of what enlightenment is. The problem with language is it can be hard to communicate what our intentions are and it can get misinterpreted. Like what I was trying to mention before about Leo is that he most likely isn't chasing after this as something to prove to the world but more out of passion. Don't forget to look at it from both sides

[kurt]

28 minutes ago, Bebop said:

Leo is that he most likely isn't chasing after this as something to prove to the world but more out of passion. 

Where did this come from?  Your imagination?