Against Solipsism...

[Fran11]

@Mason Riggle And BTW, I'm not arguing for the version of solipsism I feel you are thinking of.

There are many perspectives which God's Mind imagines. Just not in the way it intuitively seems.

We're not separate bubbles existing at the same time. Its all superposed in infinity beyond time as pure potentiality. Total oneness.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[Mason Riggle]

10 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

And no, as I said, you can't experience "subconscious" or "other minds", by definiton. We're on the same page on that one.

^this is the most important part to understand.   What difference could it possibly make whether or not there ARE other minds (exist separate from experience of them) or there just SEEM TO BE other minds (exist as experience of them)?? 

[Fran11]

9 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

What difference could it possibly make whether or not there ARE other minds (exist separate from experience of them) or there just SEEM TO BE other minds (exist as experience of them)?? 

Well, you are basically saying that you either don't care or believe it's not possible to know.

I disagree, but there's no point in trying to logically convience you.

Nice respectful conversation anyways

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[Mason Riggle]

@Fran11 lol.. I was actually asking, if anyone cares to try to answer.. 

What difference could it possibly make whether there ARE other minds, or if it just SEEMS LIKE there are? 

If there's a difference, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

[Fran11]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

@Fran11 lol.. I was actually asking, if anyone cares to try to answer.. 

What difference could it possibly make whether there ARE other minds, or if it just SEEMS LIKE there are? 

If there's a difference, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

For practical life, caring about the suffering of "others" for example.

And at a higher level, just desire for truth.

[tatsumaru]

12 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Solipsists believe their relative conscious experience is the only thing that exists.

It is proposed that "others" are simply speaking pre-determined dialogue like in a dream.

But they are not consciously coming up with this dialogue, so WHO is saying these words?

There is evidently some conscious element they are unable to access. But that is accepted to exist by them because it is in the same mind. But if the mind is all that exists, space is only a projection. So there is no more distance between their subconscious mind and our conscious mind. It all occupies the same space because there IS no space in which to create distance.

So our minds are as valid and real as their subconscious mind, or whichever processes take place to conjure up dialogue for the person's dream characters and landscapes that they cannot directly access consciously.

As long as you don't really know what you are, you can come up with all kinds of belief systems about what the world is and how it works. You could say that everyone else is projecting you and everyone else is real except for you - certainly some disassociated states can feel like this. You could say the world is a simulation. You could say the world is the brain of a demon and we are all his thoughts. Bla bla bla. All beliefs are false. When you switch to direct experience you simply experience and there's no even such distinction as dream or real. What's real about a dimension in which everything is empty and forever transforming? Solipsism is just an extreme form of egoism which claims that nothing but the Ego can be known.

[Hulia]

2 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

What difference could it possibly make whether there ARE other minds, or if it just SEEMS LIKE there are? 

It makes a difference only in terms of duality: REAL- ILLUSIONAL. If we had had at some point real minds and in the other - illusional. Than you can wonder from one point to another. Or you would rather want to wander in a particular direction from illision to real. As a Truthseeker

[Mason Riggle]

2 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

For practical life, caring about the suffering of "others" for example.

to care about others only requires that it 'seems like' there are others.  

[Fran11]

6 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

to care about others only requires that it 'seems like' there are others.  

Maybe that's true for you.

For some it would make a difference wether they think others are real or not.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[Mason Riggle]

@Hulia for Truth, transcend the 'real/illusion' duality.   The problem of 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' goes away when it's realized that 'the chicken' and 'the egg' are the same thing. 

[Mason Riggle]

@Fran11

14 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

For some it would make a difference wether they think others are real or not.

^but this is not solipsism.  This is a strawman.  Solipsists don't claim 'others are not real', only that they can not know for sure. 

The questions wasn't, 'what if someone believes others are not real'.. the question was, "What difference could it possibly make whether there ARE other minds, or if it just SEEMS LIKE there are?"   

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Fran11

^but this is not solipsism.  This is a strawman.  Solipsists don't claim 'others are not real', only that they can not know for sure. 

1) There are people who actuality claim that. I'm not using nor care about the strict philosophical definiton of solipsism, there are many flavours of it in practice.

2) Still, for some people, doubting about the existance of others may not give them the same motivation for caring about them.

If for you it makes no difference I respect that, but don't asume is that way for everyone.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[Mason Riggle]

7 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

1) There are people who actuality claim that.

Yes, but they misunderstand solipsism, and are not, strictly speaking, 'solipsists'. 

This is similar to arguing that 'running' is actually slower than walking, because there are people who think that running means 'to crawl on your hands and knees'.   This is not a case against 'running'.. and only shows how people do not understand what they are talking about when they say 'running'.  "Well, he's a runner, and he thinks it means crawling on his hands and feet, so clearly this is a problem with the idea of 'running'."
 

7 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

2) Still, for some people, doubting aboug the existance of others may not give them the same motivation for caring about them as if they didn't.

Again, 'doubting the existence of others' is not solipsism.   Solipsism is all about what can be known, not what can't be known. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[VeganAwake]

Interesting,

This conversation sounds like its pointing to the illusion of free will and choice.

There is a conditioned body-mind making conditioned choices...and then the sense of self or ego claims it as MY decision or choice.

[RMQualtrough]

2 hours ago, Fran11 said:

That's an oxymoron.

I like your analogy, but your consclusion is backwards.

You don't think of your subconscious as some bubble of consciousness which exists as an actuality outside of your experience right?  Then why do you think that way about "others"?

That's the point. If you don't think your subconscious is outside of your mind, even though you accept it exists, accept it must be a conscious process of some sort, yet can't directly access it, why would another person's mind be different?

The only difference is that there appears to be physical distance. If only your mind exists though, space is a hologram and distance doesn't exist, meaning there can't be any distance or spatial division between things.

It's just that I think "your" mind in its totality is "God's" mind. Your conscious and subconscious is part of God's mind. Perhaps consider all of our conscious minds God's subconscious, and all of our subconscious minds God's sub-subconscious (ha).

Edited June 1, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Juliano Zn]

Here we go again...

[RMQualtrough]

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

@RMQualtrough Perhaps just turn a blind eye to solipsism and don't think about it, instead of making narratives still about it. You dumb bitch 

^ Look at this, looool.

Anyway, Solipsism is not logical I am proposing now, because the person thinks only their direct conscious process exists. If that is the case then who or what causes the dialogue in the other characters in your dreams? Who or what creates the landscapes? Your conscious mind that you're then seemingly in control of is not consciously causing these things so then WHAT IS?

If it is a "subconscious mind" doing those things then you accept there is another mind running which you conscious mind isn't directly controlling or aware of. You just believe that you own it. If another mind can exist then why not many? Just because of apparent physical distance? If only mind exists there is no distance because there is no space.

Edited June 1, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Fran11]

23 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

That's the point. If you don't think your subconscious is outside of your mind, even though you accept it exists, accept it must be a conscious process of some sort, yet can't directly access it, why would another person's mind be different?

Yes I understand the parallel you are making, but you are not adressing the difference.

Do you think of your subconscious as an actual bubble of consciousness just like the one you are experiencing? Is your subconacious a real separate partition of consciousness just like the present moment but which you cannnot access?

And I'm not strict solipsist BTW.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Fran11 lol.. I was actually asking, if anyone cares to try to answer.. 

What difference could it possibly make whether there ARE other minds, or if it just SEEMS LIKE there are? 

If there's a difference, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

Yeah I agree that if we are all parts of "God's" mind like how dream characters are part of our's when we sleep (or the entities when we trip TF out), then what difference does it even make?

[RMQualtrough]

3 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Yes I understand the parallel you are making, but you are not adressing the difference.

Do you think of your subconscious as an actual bubble of consciousness just like the one you are experiencing? 

And I'm not strict solipsist BTW, just sharing ideas.

Rn I am envisioning an all encompassing "God's mind". Something/someone that is not our direct conscious experience causes the dialogue in the other characters in our dreams, so in dreams there are multiple conscious processes. And I am thinking we are all one of these in "God's" mind.

There is uniqueness just as there is between the conscious and subconscious or between love and fear. "God's mind" encompasses them all. But there is certainly uniqueness at play which we can even find within ourselves.