Deconstructing the illusory self

[ivankiss]

I'm not your bro, self!

I'm not your self, dude!

[VeganAwake]

57 minutes ago, Kalo said:

Anyways, this is just mental masturbation.

I'm tired of talking bro.

I get it...

There's a ton of what seems to be conflicting information out there.

Stop obsessively thinking about it.

LOOK and ? for yourself.

What is this ME?

What does it consist of?

[WaveInTheOcean]

10 hours ago, traveler said:

There is an apparent human body, but that is just words shining light on a particular set of forms. You could say everything is imagination, but compared to what? Every word falls short when you put it into this context, because "everything" has no opposite, no outside, no distinguishable features.

I am actually speaking from direct experience. I'm not just parroting a belief system I have bought into (although I see it could easily seem like that was the case from the outside, since, for instance, Leo also talks about Infinite Imagination)

But believe what you want. You should go validate for yourself. Don't believe what I say -- that would be a mistake -- but don't dismiss it either.

"There is an apparent human body but that is just words shining light on a particular set of forms"

Yes. But likewise, there is an apparent separate self, but that is just words shining light on a particular set of mental patterns.

You see?

I get what you mean. The separate self (ego) can't be seen or found anywhere -- while the physical body can -- so it's tempting to only dismiss the separate self as illusion/imagination and call the physical body -- a particular set of forms as you say -- a real thing.

It's true, the physical outside world with all its different forms is - in a sense - more real than thoughts and in particular the false identity/attachment of/to these thoughts (ego).

But ultimately, also the material 'real' forms can be seen to be: imagination. Your imagination. In other words, the outside world can be realized to actually be 'your doing', i.e. it's a reflection of YOU. Your imagination. A more low-level pattern/structure of thoughts, if you will.

The outside is seen to be the inside -- and the inside the outside.

It's so fucking beautiful.

Actually, if you go deep enough in your contemplation, you will see that --- just like the mental illusory separate self cannot be found anywhere, cos it does not exist --- any 'physical apparent separate object', eg. an ant, ultimately is ALSO an illusory construct and *actually* cannot be 'found' !

Take the ? walking around on the ground in the rainforest along millions of other ants in an ecosystem filled with plants, mushrooms, dirt, rain, animals, bacteria, viruses, trees etc. 

Can you describe the ant without taking into account its environment/surroundings? You could try but then what 'you get' wouldn't actually be the 'essence of the ant'. 

The essence of the ant cannot be isolated. It is just as much part of the rainforest as your right little finger is part of your body. And the Amazon rain forest is just as much part of Earth as your feet is part of your body. And the Earth is just as much part of the universe as your stomach is part of your body.

And YOU, your body, is just as much part of the whole universe, as a wave is part of an ocean. Or even more correct is to say that the ? IS the WHOLE ocean. That wave is something THE whole ocean 'is doing' -- just like 'the real you' is something the whole universe is doing! Forget free will vs. no-free-will, this is just ONE Eternal Infinite Unfolding/Happening. ? Non-duality - all distinctions & opposites collapse into ONE.

So, thus, yes, when I say 'everything' is imagination, yes, you are right, from a logical PoV this is an absolute meaningless statement. It's like saying everything is Love/God/Consciousness/Nothingness etc. Meaningless - from a rational PoV.

Yet, Absolute Truth cannot be comprehended by the logical mind. It simply cannot.

Absolutely speaking, everything is ONE. Everything is Consciousness/Love/God/Imagination/Nothingness. All opposites are seen to 'arise together' ... i.e.: they are 'of the same substance'.

If you, instead, isolate and zoom into the ant (reductionism) to 'see its true nature' you start seeing millions of cells, billions of complex biomolecules arranged in intelligent ways, quadrillions of neatly arranged protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, ... hell, what do we got, strings? Ultimately just: pure energy/potential/nothingness!

And EVERY form (physical object) is built of THAT. It's ALL seen to be Whole & One. No parts! 

If you zoom out indefinitely, you get ♾️

If you zoom in indefinitely, you get ♾️

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It's actually not like that. There is a body, then you come in and say "it is there because I imagined it." You would tend to think that the body being imagination is wild and mysterious, but there just being an apparent body without any context, knowing or description... now that is mysterious, but no one is mystified. 

You're identifying with a "higher" "I," an I that is beyond existence, an I that is the creator of all appearances. That "I" can not be localized, nor can it be described. It is totally mysterious, even the experience that you might have gotten some sort of answer only superficially fulfills the need to know. This is total anarchy. 

There is no actual Self, because in all there is there is no other. That is why we say "there is no self," because when you start talking about "God" or "The Self" you're in story land, in "something land." What is longed for is the end of looking/knowing. 

You are obviously already very conscious (like VeganAwake). You have gone deep, but the mistake you intense 'no-selfers' are making is that you think you have gone as deep as deep gets. That 'no-self' is the ultimate insight. That the rabbit hole ends here and that all the jumbo-mumbo-talk about 'God, Self, Love, Infinity, Imagination' is just pure delusion/fantasy-stories that their ego is spinning (( funny how you say the ego doesn't exist in the first place, but can still 'create' fantasy-stories, huh? )).

But you still have much deeper to go (so do I). The rabbit hole of self-realization/Consciousness is infinite -- of course! How could it be otherwise? To believe it's finite is actually rather silly. But you guys seem to be so fucking stuck in the belief that 'no-self' is the ultimate realization. 

Let me tell you: it is not. It's just one important aspect/nuance of the path. Go deeper. Don't stop here.

Communication has its limits. Direct experience is needed.

But let me highlight:

Forms are formless in nature.

Formlessness IS form.

All forms are imagined. It's all whole. Oneness is what is! Always.

Yes, there can be 'apparent' dualities, fragmentation, separation, distinctions, opposites, parts. 

But that is just what YOU -- whatever this < You / I > is (it's not the separate illusory self) -- are imagining "into existence" ! Exciting, huh? So Good, so fucking amazing. The mother of all mindfucks: IT IS ALL YOU, silly! ? YOUR doing!

Haha???❤️☯️??????????♾️

Edited April 22, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[traveler]

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

But you still have much deeper to go (so do I). The rabbit hole of self-realization/Consciousness is infinite

Deepening might happen, but to no one. What I'm saying leaves nothing off the table.

 

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Forms are formless in nature.

Formlessness IS form.

All forms are imagined. It's all whole. Oneness is what is! Always.

Yes, there can be 'apparent' dualities, fragmentation, separation, distinctions, opposites, parts. 

But that is just what YOU -- whatever this < You / I > is (it's not the separate illusory self) -- are imagining "into existence" ! Exciting, huh? So Good, so fucking amazing. The mother of all mindfucks: IT IS ALL YOU, silly! ? YOUR doing!

I sort of agree with everything you said, but it is a story, it comes from a knower that knows what this is. This knower can with a 100 percent certainty tell us that this is ONENESS. But I can not say that, I can not say anything about what is, because whenever it is described it is made into a thing, a concept, no concepts are needed, the concepts do nothing more than give you a sense that you understand and are safe in that understanding. 

There is no need to understand it, you actually can't, it can sort of resonate or pop a bubble in the brain sometimes, but it is too 'all there is' to be understood. "Nothing" is the "essence" of these words, you call it infinite, I don't call it anything, hence 'nothing'. Doesn't matter in the end.

I know you like the God talk, the ITS ALL YOU talk, but that comes from an experience and it is true, but not necessary or important. That experience is amazing, but it is an experience/a position, it is not what I'm pointing too. What I'm pointing to is the end of looking for more consciousness, the end of a position. With no position all there is is just what is, no preferences, no doer, no one that controls anything, this. These words are exactly that, these words are not separate from what these words attempt to point too. 

[WaveInTheOcean]

30 minutes ago, traveler said:

Deepening might happen, but to no one. What I'm saying leaves nothing off the table.

Not might. Will. If you take this work seriously. But I wonder if you do, since you and @VeganAwake really -- to me -- seem to be bashing your head constantly against "this wall" of "no-one" or "no-self", almost borderline close-mindedness :>

30 minutes ago, traveler said:

I sort of agree with everything you said, but it is a story, it comes from a knower that knows what this is. This knower can with a 100 percent certainty tell us that this is ONENESS. But I can not say that, I can not say anything about what is, because whenever it is described it is made into a thing, a concept, no concepts are needed, the concepts do nothing more than give you a sense that you understand and are safe in that understanding. 

First mistake is you agree with everything I said. Don't do that. Don't disagree either. Just stay open-minded, man. Go for direct experience. Smoke some DMT perhaps (your own choice of course, it isn't nessecary, there are other ways, but DMT is surely a strong "hack", lol). We both live in Denmark, so just hit me up, and I will facilitate a deep changa session for you -- it would be my pleasure! For free.

Yes, it might be a story. But what story do you want to believe in?

You see, even saying "there is no one / no self" is a story! Don't you fucking see it? 

And the strange-loopy thing of all this is that even saying a story is a story is ITSELF a story. Haha. You see how we actually can't get ANYWHERE with words?

And no, you're wrong. It doesn't come from a knower that knows anything. To use your jargon it actually comes from no one (and to no one) :-) 

All your words about "understanding happens so you can feel safe" is true enough (from one perspective, not ultimately true). But notice that while this surely applies to my story-spinning about 'infinite imagination' and so on, it ALSO applies to YOUR story about "no self".  ... - If you can't acknowledge that, or if you make your standard, automatic ,robotic reply "it applies to no one, bro", then god fucking damn it; this shadow thing is some real deep shit, haha.
 

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There is no need to understand it, you actually can't, it can sort of resonate or pop a bubble in the brain sometimes, but it is too 'all there is' to be understood. "Nothing" is the "essence" of these words, you call it infinite, I don't call it anything, hence 'nothing'. Doesn't matter in the end.

Yes, it is true, there is no need to understand.

But likewise, there is no need NOT to try to understand it either. You see? Absolute freedom. I can rest 'in letting go' & 'not trying to understand anything' -- and I'm at peace. Likewise, I can rest in 'love' & try to share/understand/conceptualize/make a story out of it all and write it here, for instance. Because... why not? :-) <3 I am still at peace while doing that. Just a different kind of peace;)

Notice, not calling it anything, is fine and all, but even THAT is calling it something. You see? Just a different kind of something, namely the silence. silence is often VERY good though; you are obviously a wise fellow.
 

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I know you like the God talk, the ITS ALL YOU talk, but that comes from an experience and it is true, but not necessary or important. That experience is amazing, but it is an experience/a position, it is not what I'm pointing too. What I'm pointing to is the end of looking for more consciousness, the end of a position. With no position all there is is just what is, no preferences, no doer, no one that controls anything, this. These words are exactly that, these words are not separate from what these words attempt to point too. 

Exactly. You said it yourself. You seem to indeed feel like you have 'arrived' and is 'done'. You don't look anymore. That is perfectly fine.

I'm happy for you if that works for you. If you are at deep peace, then indeed, why search. Just enjoy life! <3

But even that, is also a position to take:-)

peace & love bro <3

[traveler]

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

You see how we actually can't get ANYWHERE with words?

Definitely ?

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

All your words about "understanding happens so you can feel safe" is true enough (from one perspective, not ultimately true). But notice that while this surely applies to my story-spinning about 'infinite imagination' and so on, it ALSO applies to YOUR story about "no self".  ... - If you can't acknowledge that, or if you make your standard, automatic ,robotic reply "it applies to no one, bro", then god fucking damn it; this shadow thing is some real deep shit, haha.

It applies to no one, bro!!! Jk 

It seems like a standard, automatic, robotic reply because you think you know what I'm saying. You think you've heard it before. The words "Nothing", "no self", "no one", "everything", "this", all seem to me to be the most direct and the cleanest- least contaminated by concepts. I don't claim to know more than you, I haven't gotten anything. 

 

I had a lot more written down, good stuff, but my phone thought it was a fun joke to delete everything I wrote. But peace and love to you too my friend. 

[VeganAwake]

The sense of self or ego has a fantasy dream story about what Enlightenment would be like, so it chases that concept endlessly, there is no end because it has to constantly seek to keep itself intact (hamster wheel effect).

The end of seeking is the recognition that the sense of self/ego along with all its stories, beliefs, concepts and fantasies were completely unreal. The rug is pulled out beneath its feet sort of speak. It's scale of certainty goes from Probable to Unlikely to Illusory and begins to collapse/ disappear under any deep investigation.

❤

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

1 hour ago, traveler said:

Definitely ?

It applies to no one, bro!!! Jk 

It seems like a standard, automatic, robotic reply because you think you know what I'm saying. You think you've heard it before. The words "Nothing", "no self", "no one", "everything", "this", all seem to me to be the most direct and the cleanest- least contaminated by concepts. I don't claim to know more than you, I haven't gotten anything. 

 

I had a lot more written down, good stuff, but my phone thought it was a fun joke to delete everything I wrote. But peace and love to you too my friend. 

❤️

Sad, I'd be delighted if you would write it again, but I understand if you won't. Happened to me once or twice too. Absurdly annoying ?

Yeah, the lesson/insight of no-self and Nothingness are surely important and necessary for many rational-minded people to grasp first, before being able to dive deeper.

I've been there. And I still find a lot of value in the concepts of no-self and nothingness.

By the way, don't tell me it's not concepts. Words are conceptual by nature. Yes, I know words are just pointers and for sure, I naturally cannot know 100% what no-self/nothingness refers to in your direct experience, and vice versa. Same goes with "God" and so on. Just word-play.

Yes, these words are good pointers. We are all different though. I feel God or Love are more direct pointers, but on the flipside, these words are pretty contaminated (by virtue of our culture), indeed.

For me, the next step was to realize that nothingness/no-self is equal to God. And further down the road, I had the insight that Love is the answer to any question.❤️

[traveler]

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

By the way, don't tell me it's not concepts. Words are conceptual by nature. Yes, I know words are just pointers and for sure, I naturally cannot know 100% what no-self/nothingness refers to in your direct experience, and vice versa. Same goes with "God" and so on. Just word-play.

Words are words, concepts are words paired with form or meaning. "Ball" is not a concept, it is "Ball," but "Ball" can be paired with an image, the feeling and functioning of a ball, which creates the concept. If you try to understand "nothing" it becomes a concept, if not it is just what it points to: Nothing. A word. No substance. Empty. Like the Ant example you used. There is no clear image in the mind of "nothing," so it has to create an idea of what "nothing" is in order to grasp it. That is the problem with this message, nothing is an impossibility to grasp, it is not a concept.  

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Yes, these words are good pointers. We are all different though. I feel God or Love are more direct pointers, but on the flipside, these words are pretty contaminated (by virtue of our culture), indeed.

Unconditional Love. Any word that is ungraspable in nature are great pointers, because their nature reflect what is pointed too. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by traveler

[WaveInTheOcean]

13 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

LOOK and ? for yourself.

What is this ME?

Who's looking?

[Fran11]

16 hours ago, Forestluv said:

It is used to tell people that believe in a thing called "self" that there not a thing "self". That is a major awakening. Yet there are other awakenings regarding "self" / "no self". Many minds get trapped into a "no self" domain for a looooong time. 

Amen.

"No-Self" it's just a word construct just like "Self".

Both of these constructs can be either true or false depending of what they are being used to point to.

"No-Selfers" need to contemplate the nature of language deeper.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Fran11

[WaveInTheOcean]

1 hour ago, traveler said:

Words are words, concepts are words paired with form or meaning. "Ball" is not a concept, it is "Ball," but "Ball" can be paired with an image, the feeling and functioning of a ball, which creates the concept. If you try to understand "nothing" it becomes a concept, if not it is just what it points to: Nothing. A word. No substance. Empty. Like the Ant example you used. There is no clear image in the mind of "nothing," so it has to create an idea of what "nothing" is in order to grasp it. That is the problem with this message, nothing is an impossibility to grasp, it is not a concept.  

When you say "apples tastes good, sweet and sour" or think that line -- it is indeed conceptual in the sense that saying that or thinking the line isn't equal to biting an ? with your teeth. 

You can't eat the menu.

You can't replace direct experience with concepts (you can try but ultimately you will fail and feel miserable ?).

The map is not the territory.

Etc.

So "ball" as a word is indeed a concept. Sure, the word points to a direct experience of seeing the ball, feeling it, etc. but without direct exp, the word 'ball' remains inherently conceptual.

But okay, I suppose you mean the physical appearance of the characters ' b a l l ' or the sound ' b a l l ' - yeah that is just experience -- sight or sound. But I don't really see your point here.

Fundamentally, only awareness/Consciousness/EXPERIENCE exists. Have you ever experienced something that was not 'an experience' or not a part of consciousness? Hehe.

You choose to call "that-which-nothing points to" for "nothing" and not spaghettimonster, right... And it's because you find the meaning 'nothing' convey to most other people the most appropriate for that which you are trying to point to.

 I don't even know what point I'm trying to convey here.

I mean, that which "no-self" or "nothingness" points to isn't impossible to grasp. I grasp it multiple times a day during my meditation, run or just looking at trees. I'm so lost in the experience, so happy, so at peace that it doesn't feel like there is a 'self' present. Just raw being, pure experience without mental tension/fear/thoughts/concepts attached to sort of contiminate the experience.

And I sort of - simultaneously or slightly after - understand on a deep intuitive level that the trees I'm looking at are nothing. Nothingness. Love. God. Me. Everything. Consciousness. Etc. *That* which can't be communicated because it's so obvious, yet so ineffeable.

That's the thing. When I use the words "all my doing", Love or God or Imagination so frequently, it's because I literally feel/experience THAT which these words point to throughout my day. Otherwise i wouldn't use them.

If you have noticed I'm only active here during the spring/summer. Haha ???

I feel Love. I see God in everything. Myself. I see it's All Imagination. Play. Nothingness. So beautiful.

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Unconditional Love. Any word that is ungraspable in nature are great pointers, because their nature reflect what is pointed too. 

Unconditional Love isn't ungraspable. I have experienced it directly multiple times in my life now. It's something you become. Or rather, we all already are IT; all layers of belief, ego and fear and falsehood are just removed so we see it more clearly.

But okay, I guess you mean ungraspable by the conditioned rational mind. Yes, you're right ?

All paths that do not lead you to the Heart aren't it.

Edited April 22, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

23 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Amen.

"No-Self" it's just a word construct just like "Self".

Both of these constructs can be either true or false depending of what they are being used to point to.

"No-Selfers" need to contemplate the nature of language deeper.

QFT

[WaveInTheOcean]

17 hours ago, Forestluv said:

As soon as we say "there is no self", there is a self. There cannot be "no self" without "self". 

QFT. Well said.

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We can say "There is no ________". Yet as soon as that blank is filled in, there is a thing. It doesn't matter what we place in the blank. It is a thing that is not another thing. 

Spot on. 

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Another perspective: imagine telling a Chinese person "There is no self". He is learning English and doesn't understand what you mean by "self". He might ask "Is this 'self' a tuna sandwich?", we would say "No, that's not it". . . . "Is this "self" a candle?". No that's not it. . . We would need to define "self" as some thing and then say that thing is not a thing. 

Beautiful. You are brilliant with words.

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The realization of "no self" is a major realization. Yet I find it entertaining that "no-selfers" subconsciously carry a thing called "self" as they claim "there is no self".. . . Such a beautiful paradox. 

I fully agree. It's hilarious! So fucking funny.?

The shadow is called the shadow for a reason. An actual "physical" shadow follows you all the time, yet often you are unconscious of it.

When people project onto others, they are often projecting an aspect of themselves they deny/suppress.

Very interesting and hilarious to study this dynamic.

The most hilarious thing is that all my projections are probably something I suppress / deny in myself, I'm just not conscious of it. So entertaining ?? 

For instance, the no-selfers like to point out how we "no-no-selfers" (?) like to create stories and fairytales, not realizing their own belief of 'nothing/noself' is on its own a VERY cute story=D

Tell me about no-self/nothingness when shit hits the fan and a bear ? jumps in and breaks your window and run towards you in your bed. Yes, indeed, nothing is ultimately going on, but tell that to me while you yourself jump out of your bed window in panic while screaming, then landing on your left ankle on the ground breaking multiple bones, screaming even more, while suddenly the Scarlett Johansson appears out of nowhere and shows her boobs to you, saying you can lick them, if you want.

Tell me about no-self ans nothingness while all this is going on ?

Edited April 22, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[Adamq8]

No self : meaning that you are not the thoughts, beliefs, concepts and body mind.

Self : conciousness/emptiness/nothingness/GOD.

Without the Self there is no isness.

Isness IS.

 

[traveler]

10 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Tell me about no-self/nothingness when shit hits the fan and a bear ? jumps in and breaks your window and run towards you in your bed. Yes, indeed, nothing is ultimately going on, but tell that to me while you yourself jump out of your bed window in panic while screaming, then landing on your left ankle on the ground breaking multiple bones, screaming even more, while suddenly the Scarlett Johansson appears out of nowhere and shows her boobs to you, saying you can lick them, if you want.

Licking Scarlett Johanssons nipples would appear to happen if that offer was there.

[WaveInTheOcean]

12 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

No self : meaning that you are not the thoughts, beliefs, concepts and body mind.

Self : conciousness/emptiness/nothingness/GOD.

Without the Self there is no isness.

Isness IS.

 

Well said my man.

[Adamq8]

@WaveInTheOcean Thank you and you are a good writer!? ❤ i like your writing

[WaveInTheOcean]

11 minutes ago, traveler said:

Licking Scarlett Johanssons nipples would appear to happen if that offer was there.

Haha, I'm sure it would, but no one would lick those nipples, and the desire to lick them would happen to no one. In other words, nothing would happen;)

[WaveInTheOcean]

16 hours ago, traveler said:

In other words, "no self" is not something that can be realized, it is already the case.

Well, while it's true there *in actuality* never was a *separate* self, it's also true that every human being growing up grows a 'sense-of-self' around the age of 3-5. You agree?

So, this sense of being s separate self HAS to be dropped in order to realize what the meaningless words 'no self' points to, you see?

In other words, "no self" is INDEED "something" that can be realized. It's the dropping of the sense-of-being-a-self-inside-a-head...

The question for you is who/what realizes it. My answer now would be the Dao that can't be spoken, or the Selfless Self, ska God. The veil is lifted.

Feels like there are a lot of enneagram type Fives on this forum (I'm one myself) and the trap of the Five is to replace direct exp with concepts. Seems like 90% of Fives on this forum has fallen into that trap and is struggling big time to get out (been there myself, not pleasent at all).