Who Are The Proud Boys?

[Preety_India]

18 minutes ago, commie said:

Racism. The issue gets gringos very defensive for some reason.

I actually had to Google that word 

 

[commie]

I'm not sure who you mean with "we" but I don't think people should worry about looking hysterial. Hysteria is always in the eye of the beholder. That's not the word people typically use for Trump for instance.

[Preety_India]

@dyslexicCnut  I understand your point of view and I'm sorry that you had that conversation with your mom. She shouldn't have been so condescending. If I were you, I wouldn't talk to her again. I do see a lot of open mindedness on your part. I don't think anyone on this forum is a white supremacist. I have regularly participated in race related discussions on this section and you look into them, they were 2 months ago, during the time of  George Floyd protests and I'm so sick of seeing racism and if you're from the states, I'm sorry about whatever experiences you might have had, also I agree that the proud boys cannot be without a tinge of racism in them, would be hypocritical to say otherwise(look at my first post in this thread). I think the media is mostly correct about them. I denounce any sort of nationalistic sentiment because all it begets is hate and to me it looks like identity politics and super childish in the 21st century tbh. 

 

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

And we- as all POCs.

Whats a poc

 

[commie]

51 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Forget about the specific semantic then, it is not important. My point is that racism is hurtful and damaging and that it is hard to fight well when you're being emotional or tensed.

And we- as all POCs. I'm a black female .

The white profile pic threw me off.

The thing about anger (or whatever) is, would you be motivated to fight if you were comfortable? I don't resent people who behave angrily when they're also contributing more than the ones next to them. I get policing your own behavior to be safer but the most likely outcome is that the haters will find someone slightly less angry to hate on. So from a collective perspective, I don't think it works.

It's kind of like nationalism: good for throwing off the imperialist yoke but you gotta leave it behind at some point.

Edited October 6, 2020 by commie

[ravlondon]

@Thewritersunion Yeah

[StephenK]

To everyone in this thread that I may have offended with my ‘suck it up’ attitude: I apologize for my tone and closed mindedness throughout my posts on this topic. I realize now that I have an unhealthy obsession with the ‘personal responsibility’ narrative due to a conservative upbringing. That has caused me to be blind to and ignore the effects of things that people can not control -- things they have no responsibility for.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by StephenK

[Leo Gura]

@dyslexicCnut If you do not change your consistently belligerent tone towards the members of this forum, you will be banned.

Whatever arguments you're making are undermined by your needlessly obnoxious attitude.

[dyslexicCnut]

@Leo Gura Haha, the ol' ban hammer. I suppose that's one way to win an argument. There are multiple users who have defended my approach, and it's interesting how the ones who are not invested in defending any narrative have commended my patience in dealing with baseless viewpoints. Would you mind giving an example of something I've said that crosses a line? Perhaps in PM as not to obscure the thread's subject matter.

In regards to this topic, I'm curious whether you would consider the "white supremacist" description of Proud Boys as classified by accredited US intelligence agencies enough to justify the terms' usage in reference to these extremists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys#cite_note-SPLC-10

@StephenK You've made my day, I really appreciate your open mindedness. I hope my tone hasn't at all alienated you from further discussion, but I would understand. I've noticed that I myself require a somewhat condescending opposition in order to be the most receptive to counter arguments, so it's an approach I reflexively cling to.

If there's any confusion still, in short, the proper argument is that, of course genetics determine human behavior, but when we are specifically examining the difference between white and black prosperity, there is no evidence suggesting genetics play even a role in this disparity, and the academic consensus has consistently found that these differences can be explained exclusively from socialization and environmental factors. 

I'm curious if you have recently come across any media sources that have persuaded you to be more open to the environmental argument to explain black community issues, and I would ask that you please provide them if so, or was it necessary to have encountered the arguments I put forth in order for you new perspective. Very curious for you answer on this one.

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, dyslexicCnut said:

@Leo Gura Haha, the ol' ban hammer. I suppose that's one way to win an argument.

I don't care about winning an argument with you. Just don't act cnuty on this forum.

For someone so adamantly arguing for left-wing anti-racistic positions, you have the attitude of a right-wing 4chan troll.

Quote

In regards to this topic, I'm curious whether you would consider the "white supremacist" description of Proud Boys as classified by accredited US intelligence agencies enough to justify the terms' usage in reference to these extremists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys#cite_note-SPLC-10

The lines between various right-wing nationalist and racist groups tend to get very blurry.

I basically agree with the Southern Poverty Law Center's initial characterization of the Proud Boys:

Quote

...the Proud Boys are self-described “western chauvinists” who adamantly deny any connection to the racist “alt-right,” insisting they are simply a fraternal group spreading an “anti-political correctness” and “anti-white guilt” agenda.

This is how the Proud Boys see themselves.

Of course left-wingers will see them differently.

You have to make a distinction between how people view themselves vs how you view them. You might actually learn something by taking their self-identification and self-description seriously.

[StephenK]

15 hours ago, dyslexicCnut said:

I hope my tone hasn't at all alienated you from further discussion.

No, your tone did not push me away. It is the very reason I got into an argument with you in the first place (after seeing some of your other posts on this forum). I tend to get drawn to people with overly confrontational tones and therefore I take stubborn positions that cloud my better judgement, regardless of the topic. It is a silly trap to fall into. But I did.

15 hours ago, dyslexicCnut said:

I'm curious if you have recently come across any media sources that have persuaded you to be more open to the environmental argument to explain black community issues, and I would ask that you please provide them if so, or was it necessary to have encountered the arguments I put forth in order for you new perspective. Very curious for you answer on this one.

I think the root of the issue is that I strawmanned your position by assuming you were saying: “All suffering within the black community (including that of the human condition) can be effectively explained by socioeconomic factors and slavery, and that by extension is your fault because you’re white.” I thought you were implying that genetics had no part to play in the suffering we experience as human beings.

I realize now that was a silly, emotionally driven strawman to make, but I believe that it is one that a lot of people fall into. But yes, I agree: Socioeconomic factors and historical injustices explain the difference in outcomes that exist between groups.

I think another error I made was assuming that socioeconomics and institutional racism are used interchangeably, whereas the reality is that institutional racism is a subset of socioeconomics?

I think the larger issue is that I am not fully educated on the terminology used, nor what it is pointing to.   

Edited October 8, 2020 by StephenK