Amazing Debate Showcasing The Stage Blue Political Worldview

[Leo Gura]

Vaush has hit the mother-lode with this caller:

I like that in the end Vaush is conscious enough to understand that he needs to get better a communicating with stage Blue people. Although he still doesn't understand that the failure to communicate is a function of different level of consciousness and ego development.

[Leo Gura]

He has a great technical grasp of sociological issues. Makes me wish I studied sociology in college.

[Danioover9000]

@Husseinisdoingfine  I think it's better if you do provide some solid evidence instead of just a meme like below: 

2 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Right here is an accurate summary of your ‘Why Bernie lost vlog’:

 

   because the guidelines are much tighter now.

[Leo Gura]

@Husseinisdoingfine It's way simpler than that. There simply isn't a large % of people in America who are progressives.

How can a progressive candidate win in a democracy when the majority of voters are not progressive?

It's just so simple.

A guy like Bernie will win the presidency only when something like half the country is progressive.

Your mama and papa ain't progressives. Contemplate that.

[Jennjenn]

That caller is a product of his environment. He has been lied to his whole life. He has been told that black people deserve what they have, because of their “culture” and he even said “genes”. The argument is that black people are “defective, subpar humans”. There is zero understanding of the history of past social projects. 
Also, Blacks have been an scapegoat for capitalism. He’s right about paying to much taxes, but that’s not Black and poor people’s fault. That’s capitalism’s fault. But politicians have been lying to their faces, telling them is the “welfare state”. No, It is not. It is lobbyists, politicians that take their money, and capitalism in general’s fault. 

Now, for them the best defense is a good offense. Doubling down. Can you imagine how hard can it be to realized that your family, your school and the government lied to you your whole life? 

I blame education. Because I must confess that I didn’t think critically about any of this topics until I started educating myself. Kids go to school to learn whitewashed history and economics, emphasis on the “white”. 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Jennjenn said:

He’s right about paying to much taxes

America doesn't have too much taxes.

Effective tax rates are very low.

People just love to bitch out paying taxes because their minds get infected with that libertarian ideology which says that you have no responsibility to society.

[Jennjenn]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Effective tax rates are very low.

Someone earning $300 a week should not pay $100 in taxes imo. 50 ok $100 no. They pay $100 every week on a $300 salary while Amazon pays zero. 
 

Also, All this problems are the result of mismanaged capitalism. 

Since white people are the majority in this country, politicians hide their corruption behind their favorite scape goat which is black and brown people. They know they only need the votes of whites, thanks to systems like voter suppression in place. The biggest problem with this strategy is the scalation of white supremacy sentiments. If I tell a population made up generalizations like Blacks are criminals, Mexicans are rapists, Muslims are terrorists, the result is white people thinking that they’re inheritedly better, and the vulnerable victims of all those crazy maniacs.... Unless, they get the messiah, the ultimate White Alpha Male, aka Trump.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jennjenn

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, Jennjenn said:

Someone earning $300 a week should not pay $100 in taxes imo. 50 ok $100 no. They pay $100 every week on a $300 salary while Amazon pays zero. 

Someone earning $300 per week DOES NOT pay $100 in taxes in America.

I've been earning 6 figures for the last decade, and I have never paid over 33% effective tax rate. And nearly all my income was self-employed cash income. Which is taxed at the highest rates.

Effective tax rate is always significantly lower than the tax bracket rates.

P.S. Of course if you include sales tax and property tax, then it may get over 30%. But I'm talking Federal.

[Jennjenn]

@Leo Gura ok, I misspoke. For someone earning $300 It is around 23% which will be around $70. I still think that someone earning such a low wage should not pay that much.... $70 for someone that earns $300 is a crazy amount of money. $30 to $50 would be more than enough. (This is in NYC where federal and state taxes are taken every week)
Someone that benefits from this system are corporations and investors, basically anyone that knows how the system works and can claim everything as a loss or investment and ends up paying zero in taxes, while the average Joe keeps picking up the slack and the need for more low wage workers increases. It is a fact that low wage illegal immigrants are currently keeping social security, medicaid and Medicare alive. 
https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

Higher taxes for higher income, lower taxes for lower income is the key. 

The problem is that our society sees taxes as punishment, like the higher taxes on cigarettes and alcohol and now the new vaping tax. Maybe paying higher taxes the more money you earn can be seen as punishment by some. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jennjenn

[Jennjenn]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

avoid the personal income tax, it read that all wealth creators apparently avoid this tax like the plague.

Because personal income tax is the highest tax. Billion dollar corporations can manage to pay very low or even zero in taxes. Just ask Facebook and Amazon. 
 

Amazon alone exploits the USPS, I don’t understand how they’re able to exploit a public company like that and with a straight face don’t pay any taxes at the end of the year. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jennjenn

[Apparition of Jack]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Vaush has hit the mother-lode with this caller:

I like that in the end Vaush is conscious enough to understand that he needs to get better a communicating with stage Blue people. Although he still doesn't understand that the failure to communicate is a function of different level of consciousness and ego development.

I would say Vaush is at strong Green with some small hints on Yellow, but still has too much toxic Orange and Tier 1 thinking about “us” vs “them.” I do think he’s at a high enough development though that given enough time, life experience and good arguments he could be pushed to Tier 2 thinking.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Apparition of Jack

[Consept]

5 hours ago, Jennjenn said:

ok, I misspoke. For someone earning $300 It is around 23% which will be around $70. I still think that someone earning such a low wage should not pay that much.... $70 for someone that earns $300 is a crazy amount of money. $30 to $50 would be more than enough.

I'm not an expert on US tax but in the UK we get a personal tax allowance of upto £12500 where you don't pay any tax if you earn under that amount. I think the US have something similar. I know there are deductions for certain things, so I don't think it's as simple as just they take 23%. 

Your overall point that Amazon and other companies should pay more tax is definitely true, but they need to adjust the system and not allow tax loopholes. Problem is companies will do anything within legality to avoid paying tax, so if they can get away with it in any country they'll go to that country, so it becomes a balancing act for governments if they want to keep big businesses. 

[Leo Gura]

If your salary is under $25,000, you will be paying very little effective federal tax. Probably around 15%.

[Jennjenn]

4 hours ago, Consept said:

we get a personal tax allowance of upto £12500 where you don't pay any tax if you earn under that amount. I think the US have something similar.

Unfortunately there are no allowances for low income in the US. What we have is credits like child credits. That’s why the caller mentioned that, and Vaush said “childless life matters” lol... That’s why low and middle income people get this ideas about lower taxes, but it is not just because they want to be “libertarian” or “don’t have responsibility to society”, but it’s because at some level they know that they have been left to carry the weight of society on their own, and since they’ve been brainwashed to support capitalism blindly, they don’t say “make corporations pay more taxes” but instead they say “I don’t want to pay any taxes just like them”. 

[Leo Gura]

31 minutes ago, Jennjenn said:

Unfortunately there are no allowances for low income in the US.

Have you ever paid taxes? Because what you're saying is factually false.

Standard deduction is $12,400 for single person.

[Jennjenn]

@Leo Gura But that happens at the end of the year. You would pay taxes every week regardless. Even if you get a $125 check every week you would get taxes deducted. At the end of the year you might get something back if you didn’t make enough, but you have to wait a whole year for it. And that’s a factual truth! 
 

I keep trying to make a comprehensive argument about where the libertarians and white supremacist Ideas come from, which was the point of Vaush video, but you keep fixating on minor details

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jennjenn

[Consept]

4 hours ago, Jennjenn said:

@Leo Gura But that happens at the end of the year. You would pay taxes every week regardless. Even if you get a $125 check every week you would get taxes deducted. At the end of the year you might get something back if you didn’t make enough, but you have to wait a whole year for it. And that’s a factual truth! 
 

I keep trying to make a comprehensive argument about where the libertarians and white supremacist Ideas come from, which was the point of Vaush video, but you keep fixating on minor details

It seems important though, because getting taxed compared getting your tax back at the end year are definitely 2 different things. You could make the argument that they shouldnt do it that way but thats a different argument. Also it would make more sense to me to pay a living wage rather than not tax, the problem isnt that the tax is too much its more that non-skilled jobs are paid so low 

[Danioover9000]

 @Jennjenn Regarding the statement 'higher taxes for higher income, lower taxes for lower income' might sound nice in theory, but something tells me that in practice, with the way economics works in the USA and China, it seems like an overly simple solution to an extremely complex issue like taxation. In mathematics, in the study of quantity, we have ratio, and any changes to a part of the ratio equivalently alters the other parts. At some point, though, we reach what's called 'inverse proportionality' meaning that and up/down scaling of one part does not mean the other parts equivalently change. So, even if we may pass legislation on higher taxation for high income, lower taxes for lower income, some experts has to work out how these new changes to the system will effect upper, middle and lower income classes and anticipate negative consequences for these changes.

 

[IndianPanini]

17 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I would say Vaush is at strong Green with some small hints on Yellow, but still has too much toxic Orange and Tier 1 thinking about “us” vs “them.” I do think he’s at a high enough development though that given enough time, life experience and good arguments he could be pushed to Tier 2 thinking.

Could you elaborate on what tiers of thinking are? Is there something I can read to learn?

[Apparition of Jack]

4 hours ago, IndianPanini said:

Could you elaborate on what tiers of thinking are? Is there something I can read to learn?

It's to do with Spiral Dynamics. Leo has a full series of videos explaining what it is and how it works if you want to get a very good overview of it.

Also if you want to read about it check out the book Spiral Dynamics by Christopher Cowan and Don Beck. It's a great model.