Does being trans-age make more sense the trans-gender?

[Fran11]

35 minutes ago, Consept said:

Im gonna be annoying and answer your question with a question - Should we allow people to change their birth gender at will? 

What you have from birth is a sex, not a gender.

Gender is social construction originally based upon sex, basically speaking, it stereotypes women as being hyper femenine and men being hyper masculine, which was so in the past mostly due to survival conditions.

Nowdays, these stereotypes are slowly being revised and trascended. Again, for it to happen totally, it may take generations. By that time, what you call trans-gendering would be just chainging an irrelevant label. 

The mismatch that trans people percieve beetween body and mind is due to social constructions which are in permanent change.

The point most people don't understand is that there are objectively no women/men's preferences/activities/bahaviour/minds. Which is why there's so much vaiety within one gender. 

People built stereotypes around a byologcial caracteristic like sex or age. And then want to change the meaning of a term that was originally lingustically pointing to a biological caracteristic, to a more pshychological meaning. This is not bad but it becomes irrelevant as stereotypes colapse.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Fran11

[Forestluv]

42 minutes ago, Consept said:

Should we allow people to change their birth gender at will? 

What is a birth gender?

[Hatfort]

35 minutes ago, Consept said:

Im gonna be annoying and answer your question with a question - Should we allow people to change their birth gender at will? 

You didn't answer the question. I'm not annoyed though and I'll answer yours. I'm willing to do what I ask for, that's fair enough.

We do allow people to change their birth gender legally in many countries, yeah, I think that's fine, we should allow it.

Can you honestly answer yes to my question now? My suspicion is that you don't answer it because it's a no and you don't want to say it. If you avoid it again with another question, I won't answer it this time. I think that's fair too.

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

The point most people don't understand is that there are objectively no women/men's preferences/activities/bahaviour/minds. Which is why there's so much vaiety within one gender. 

People built stereotypes around a byologcial caracteristic like sex or age. And then want to change the meaning of a term that was originally lingustically pointing to a biological caracteristic, to a more pshychological meaning. This is not bad but it becomes irrelevant as stereotypes colapse.

I agree i think the stereotypes will collapse and it all will become irrelevant, it will most likely take a while though 

18 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

What is a birth gender?

My bad, birth sex 

13 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

You didn't answer the question. I'm not annoyed though and I'll answer yours. I'm willing to do what I ask for, that's fair enough.

We do allow people to change their birth gender legally in many countries, yeah, I think that's fine, we should allow it.

Can you honestly answer yes to my question now? My suspicion is that you don't answer it because it's a no and you don't want to say it. If you avoid it again with another question, I won't answer it this time. I think that's fair too.

OK thanks for answering. I will say yes then because i cant see an argument that someone can change their gender but someone else cant change another thing that may define them, if they felt strongly about it. As in why do we get to pick and choose what someone can and cant do? I get the argument that there are hormones and theres a spectrum and theres a condition of gender dysphoria, but there could be different but also affecting reasons why someone might want to change their age. The mainstream narrative is that trans-gender people should be accepted and this is of course how it should be, no one should be persecuted for how they are or choose to be.

But just as i thought experiment imagine if we heard a lot in mainstream media about how trans-age people should be accepted and we learn about the psychological issues they have and reasons why they would like to change their age, maybe how theyre persecuted for being old, do you think that people will eventually accept that this is a thing and let people legally change their age?

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Fran11 said:

I'm not opposed to these kind of solutions per se, but I a line must be drawn at some point becouse it is impossible to allow everybody to legally force everybody else to respect their identifications.

You're not "legally forced" to refer to anybody's birth age either, or atleast I don't know what you mean by that.

I also want to clarify that I'm not necessarily going all-in, blindly supporting all possible types of transage sentiments. I just don't see how the general sentiment is in conflict with the general sentiment of being transgender.

 

1 hour ago, Fran11 said:

Also, trans gender and trans age are notions that deppend on prior social stereotypes in continuos revision and deconstruction. So my guess is that probably in the future these will be discarded and only the freedoms that they allowed will remain, without changing an irrelevant label becausd stereotypes will be gone. This may take generations.

True. However, you can compare this to how some progressives don't want to play the political game and want to go straight to socialism without any intermediary steps. It's something to aim for, but it's not a realistic short-term goal.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Forestluv]

41 minutes ago, Consept said:

My bad, birth sex 

For the question “ should we allow someone to change their birth sex as will”, does this mean changing physical sex characteristics like genitalia, hormone levels etc? If so, I’d say it depends on the situation. I would say someone should be a certain age, has gone through education, it’s informed consent and freedom of consent for the change. 

[Hatfort]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

10

43 minutes ago, Consept said:

OK thanks for answering. I will say yes then because i cant see an argument that someone can change their gender but someone else cant change another thing that may define them, if they felt strongly about it. As in why do we get to pick and choose what someone can and cant do? I get the argument that there are hormones and theres a spectrum and theres a condition of gender dysphoria, but there could be different but also affecting reasons why someone might want to change their age. The mainstream narrative is that trans-gender people should be accepted and this is of course how it should be, no one should be persecuted for how they are or choose to be.

But just as i thought experiment imagine if we heard a lot in mainstream media about how trans-age people should be accepted and we learn about the psychological issues they have and reasons why they would like to change their age, maybe how theyre persecuted for being old, do you think that people will eventually accept that this is a thing and let people legally change their age?

So you do think people should be allowed to change their age legally, is that right? Okay, go for it!

In any case, I think we have a false analogy or faulty comparison case here. Yeah, there is a shared characteristic, but that doesn't necessarily mean that what is valid in one case is automatically valid in the other, as you present it and believe yourself, apparently.

Mountain boots and swimming flippers both are worn on our feet, but you certainly shouldn't exchange one for the purpose of the other.

[Consept]

22 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

For the question “ should we allow someone to change their birth sex as will”, does this mean changing physical sex characteristics like genitalia, hormone levels etc? If so, I’d say it depends on the situation. I would say someone should be a certain age, has gone through education, it’s informed consent and freedom of consent for the change. 

No although that is a relevant question as well, I guess i did mean gender in a way. I mean can someone who is assigned male or female at birth change their gender legally, so be known and accepted as the opposite gender they were born as with or without having undergone a sex change. The changing physicla sex characteristics is hot topic in terms of whether the process should tart early in childhood, which i havent got a clear answer for but it would be along the lines of what youre saying. 

24 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

So you do think people should be allowed to change their age legally, is that right? Okay, go for it!

In any case, I think we have a false analogy or faulty comparison case here. Yeah, there is a shared characteristic, but that doesn't necessarily mean that what is valid in one case is automatically valid in the other, as you present it and believe yourself, apparently.

Mountain boots and swimming flippers both are worn on our feet, but you certainly shouldn't exchange one for the purpose of the other.

Do you think you dismissing trans-age is similar to those who thought of themselves as progressives, dismissing trans-gender a few years ago? The point being you may not know the full scope of information and of the issues facing someone who maybe trans-age the same way a lot of people didnt about trans-gender

[Hatfort]

 

 

 

 

2

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

Do you think you dismissing trans-age is similar to those who thought of themselves as progressives, dismissing trans-gender a few years ago? The point being you may not know the full scope of information and of the issues facing someone who maybe trans-age the same way a lot of people didnt about trans-gender

No, I don't think it's similar, only on the surface. As said, what's it's valid in one case, doesn't hold in the other.

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Consept said:

No although that is a relevant question as well, I guess i did mean gender in a way. I mean can someone who is assigned male or female at birth change their gender legally, so be known and accepted as the opposite gender they were born as with or without having undergone a sex change. The changing physicla sex characteristics is hot topic in terms of whether the process should tart early in childhood, which i havent got a clear answer for but it would be along the lines of what youre saying. 

I don’t understand what you mean by “the gender they were born as”. 

[Consept]

1 minute ago, Hatfort said:

No, I don't think it's similar, only on the surface. As said, what's it's valid in one case, doesn't hold in the other.

What makes it different?

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

I don’t understand what you mean by “the gender they were born as”. 

Ill give you im not very good with terms. Can someone who was born a male for example, become a woman with or without physical sex changes? This would include being accepted by society as such both legally and otherwise 

[Hatfort]

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Consept said:

What makes it different?

What makes age different from sex and gender? Age is known as the time we have lived since we were born. With sex, we traditionally differentiate two biological ones, male and female and I'm not going to explain much about gender or gender roles, but there are things we socially understand about them, that have become more flexible in recent times. Quite different concepts, with very different implications, I don't see why we have to apply the same logic with both of them.

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

As in why do we get to pick and choose what someone can and cant do? 

We are talking about legal systems here. We make it up precisely by picking these sort of things. This is unavoidable.

Like I said above, allowing every member of society to have whatever kind of self-identification they have valideated by law is impracticable. Consider there are millions more examples besides the two we are using here, as many as people.

I may identify as a billionarie, as a tall person, as a cow, as an orange, etc etc. 

Are you gonna create a law for each, or in most cases you wil appeal to respect and love from society? This requires a mature society of course, but there's no other way. We can't rush progress just by making lost of laws.

The necesity for drawing a line is clear, the pleace in which it must be drawn is not, which is why these discussions arise.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Fran11

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, Consept said:

 

Ill give you im not very good with terms. Can someone who was born a male for example, become a woman with or without physical sex changes? This would include being accepted by society as such both legally and otherwise 

This gets into social constructs of what “maleness” and “femaleness”. What one needs to do to qualify as being “a male” is relative and dependent on social constructs. What does a trans-male need to do to be considered a “male” in society? Well, what is “male?”. If the person takes testosterone supplements, has large muscles, facial hair is aggressive, appears 100% male and is treated as a male because nobody can tell he is a trans male, is that close enough? I don’t know. This person wouldn’t understand things like getting a hard-on or getting kicked in the nuts. Yet then how “male” am I? I don’t have certain hyper masculine traits, do I still qualify as being a male? Who is more male, an aggressive trans male that hunts, dominates women, and does MMA  or an effeminate cis-male that is in touch with his emotions, very creative and likes flowers and butterflies?

This is the interplay between objective form and relative formlessness. Between grounded and groundless. If we go too far in either direction, problems arise. If we try to create a hard binary male vs female construct it won’t work because nobody will meet all the criteria for being either male or female. Yet if we say identity is formless and constantly changing in the moment, how would society function? What if every person completely changed all their identities everyday - their age, race, gender, career, etc. On Tuesday, its Bob the 40 yo white male banker with three kids, on Wednesday it’s Priscilla the pixie dancer from Xenon with mixed intergalactic heritage, on Thursday, it’s Ron the gay psychologist, Friday, its Amanda a bisexual Vietnam veteran with PTSD. If everyone did this, it would be a mess. Extreme fluidity has problems as well

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Who is more male, an aggressive trans male that hunts, dominates women, and does MMA 

Pictures of a transgender Joe Rogan comes to mind. That could actually be a Michael Brooks character loool

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Hatfort]

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Pictures of a transgender Joe Rogan comes to mind. That could actually be a Michael Brooks character loool

 

 

Funny man, he is missed.

[Carl-Richard]

@Hatfort This one makes so much more sense after the WAP debacle hahahahaha (PUA Shapiro):

 

 

(I'm not going to derail the topic any longer )

 

[Hatfort]

@Carl-Richard Amazing Shapiro impersonation!

It's fine, man, had enough debate, no better way to settle it!