Does being trans-age make more sense the trans-gender?

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

That's why I think we should work on deconstructing these social sterotypes

You do that by deconstructing it in practice, and that is what transgender and transage is doing. 

 

4 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Age/height/weight do have important uses and implications taken as biological facts. We would lose that if we allow people to just change them instead of attacking the real root problem.

In what way? Even if you're transage, if the doctor needs to know your biological/birth age, then he can just ask you.

[Fran11]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You do that by deconstructing it in practice, and that is what transgender and transage is doing. 

It's reinforcing them in a way. If I am old and happen to like things that society considers to be "for younger people", by changing my age I'm actually convalidating that these things are in fact for yonger people. 

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

In what way? Even if you're transage, if the doctor needs to know your biological/birth age, then he can just ask you.

If people don't get offended by someone asking them the very thing they are pushing society to deny, there would be no problem. But that's too optimistic in my experience.

[Consept]

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I think that a trans-gender would claim that they are the gender they changed to.

The trans-woman in the second video seems pretty factual with everything she says. She's outspoken about the fact that she was born biologically as a man, and that she changed her social role, and altered her body. I don't think she's gaslighting anyone by claiming she is a woman under those circumstances.

She does gaslight in other instances though, she was on celebrity big brother and the singer Ginuwine got some backlash for saying he wouldnt date a trans woman, when she pushed him in it, clip below. But i dont want to take her as an example of all trans women, i dont know that to be the case but it is fair to say her perspective is whats being pushed in the media. 

 

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

There was another debate about the race too, now the age, comparing to the transgender community. If you people want to go deeply philosophical, whatever, everything you say is a social construct, language is a social construct itself, it wasn't given by nature. But in practice, that's how we understand each other. Gender, skin color, or age are different concepts and we don't need to measure or treat them the same way. Just for swapping one concept into the context of another, that won't change it and all it's characteristics magically.

Age is not gender, gender biology and identity have very particular characteristics that we can't really apply to age, which has it's own and that's fine. I don't think it's fair to compare people who deal with gender identity issues, with this non-issue. You feel younger, good for you, go and enjoy your life, while you can.

I was involved in the thread about race and to me things like trans racial are interesting as its a new way that humans are seeing themselves, so i think the discussion is worthwhile, im mixed race black and white btw. Not to be rude but i dont think its for you to say what should be discussed, no one was offended by the race and if anyone is offended by this one they can say, i have tried my best to be respectful. I would also say the arguments in your last paragraph wouldve applied to trans-gender people 50 or so years ago and probably still used today, people wouldve been dismissive at best of trans-gender people and would never have accepted that they could change gender. So relatively speaking i dont think its that different from the age thing. Moreover i just found it interesting how ridiculed this guy in the video was compared to other who want to change their sex. 

[Hatfort]

11 minutes ago, Consept said:

I was involved in the thread about race and to me things like trans racial are interesting as its a new way that humans are seeing themselves, so i think the discussion is worthwhile, im mixed race black and white btw. Not to be rude but i dont think its for you to say what should be discussed, no one was offended by the race and if anyone is offended by this one they can say, i have tried my best to be respectful.

I have not said what should be discussed or not, I have commented on both topics myself. I'm not offended by the discussion, let's make that clear too.

12 minutes ago, Consept said:

I would also say the arguments in your last paragraph wouldve applied to trans-gender people 50 or so years ago and probably still used today, people wouldve been dismissive at best of trans-gender people and would never have accepted that they could change gender.

My point is that we don't need to apply the same logic in such different concepts, it won't work. The comparison you make with transgenders 50 years ago, to transages now is precisely doing that. Let's bet a little franc here, do you think in 50 years people will be able to change their legal age because they feel younger? Just because you change the word gender for age, doesn't mean it's the same kind of thing we are talking about. Yes, there is the parallelism that in both cases it's about something people feel inside doesn't correspond with the outside, I guess. But that's it, just surface, from then on the implications both cases entail are completely different.

[Forestluv]

I think it boils down to how people perceive what is actual and whether deviations from perceived actuality negatively impacts one’s self or one’s group. If I say I’m a pixie and start dancing in my backyard in a pixie costume, no one is going to care. Someone may see it as a deviation from actuality (he is actually a human), yet it doesn’t impact them. People at Orange would think a person should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don’t harm others. Yet if someone felt they were being forced to accept and treat me like I was actually a pixie, then they have a problem. Or if pixies become a marginalized group deserving of preferential job hires, a lot of people would be upset. . . Some people at Red/Blue may get upset because they see a pixie delusion itself as being some type of devilish immoral behavior. 

[Fran11]

20 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yet if someone felt they were being forced to accept and treat me like I was actually a pixie, then they have a problem. 

The problem is where do we draw the line.

Shoule we allow everyone to legally force everybody else to validate wether self-perceptions they have? Evidentely, this would be far too impractical. 

But of course there's value in using the power of goverment in order to help correcting social issues. Like preferential hires like you said.

It's a delicate balance in my opinion.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Fran11

[Consept]

40 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

I have not said what should be discussed or not, I have commented on both topics myself. I'm not offended by the discussion, let's make that clear too.

OK fair enough, all love. 

56 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

My point is that we don't need to apply the same logic in such different concepts, it won't work. The comparison you make with transgenders 50 years ago, to transages now is precisely doing that. Let's bet a little franc here, do you think in 50 years people will be able to change their legal age because they feel younger? Just because you change the word gender for age, doesn't mean it's the same kind of thing we are talking about. Yes, there is the parallelism that in both cases it's about something people feel inside doesn't correspond with the outside, I guess. But that's it, just surface, from then on the implications both cases entail are completely different.

I think it maybe more relevant than you realise. As a species we are moving toward trans-humanism, theyll be a time when we almost merge with technology and who knows what affect this will have on age and other physical factors. 

But yeah i agree its not the same thing, but at the same time why can someone claiming it be mocked whereas a trans person is (rightfully) defended? I dont think its that far off, as we know time is illusory and biological is is a thing as well as mental age. The gender argument includes whether someone is masculine or feminine or where they fall on that spectrum, its different but I dont think its a crazy comparison. 

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

I think it boils down to how people perceive what is actual and whether deviations from perceived actuality negatively impacts one’s self or one’s group. If I say I’m a pixie and start dancing in my backyard in a pixie costume, no one is going to care. Someone may see it as a deviation from actuality (he is actually a human), yet it doesn’t impact them. People at Orange would think a person should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don’t harm others. Yet if someone felt they were being forced to accept and treat me like I was actually a pixie, then they have a problem. Or if pixies become a marginalized group deserving of preferential job hires, a lot of people would be upset. . . Some people at Red/Blue may get upset because they see a pixie delusion itself as being some type of devilish immoral behavior. 

Funny you should say, there is actually a boy who believes hes a cyborg who was on Dr Phil. But i think that is the issue, anyone is free to claim theyre anything but getting society to go along with that is another thing

 

 

 

[Forestluv]

@Fran11 @Consept It brings to mind the balance between grounding and groundless. Order and disorder.

In the context of SD, red is groundless ‘anything goes’ without rules and order - yet often in a harmful way to others. Blue came arose with the utility of rules and laws for social grounding and order. Perhaps as Green emerges, the pendulum may swing back into a new groundless, ‘anything goes’ relativity - yet a new form that is distinct from Red’s groundlessness. This groundlessness is more hyper relativity and fluidity. As an extreme example for strong contrast: imagine each person fluidly identifying with whatever arose with no grounding. Some people are cyborgs, others trans-animals, trans-plants - the next day one could be an alien, human, one of hundreds of genders. It would be like a groundless dream world. . . Having some categories and consistency in a timeline seems to have practical value in having a society. Yet who knows what things will look like in 100 years. 

It’s also interesting to think what conservative and progressive is. If someone thinks it’s a bad idea for everyone in society to just be whatever identity they want in the moment, is that a conservative view? It may be in another 50 years. Perhaps the progressive view is fluid trans-identity expression of Now. Yet how could society function? How could people have continuous jobs, schools etc.? Yet maybe I’m being an old fuddy duddy conservative. 

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

Perhaps as Green emerges, the pendulum may swing back into a new groundless, ‘anything goes’ relativity - yet a new form that is distinct from Red’s groundlessness.  

Exactly.

With the "Green rising", along with the real social progress, inevitabily appear a lot of extremist ideas and proposals that aren't of much value and will latter be descarded. This is totally natural and it happens as we struggle to find the new equilibrium.

But of course arguing against these extremist ideas with Green may cause him to percieve you as being conservative. 

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Exactly.

With the "Green rising", along with the real social progress, inevitabily appear a lot of extremist ideas and proposals that aren't of much value and will latter be descarded. This is totally natural and it happens as we struggle to find the new equilibrium.

But of course arguing against these extremist ideas with Green may cause him to percieve you as being conservative. 

I find what counts as ‘extremest’ or ‘progressive’ to be an interesting idea. For example, at one time same-sex marriage was seen as both ‘extremist’ and ‘progressive’.  These days, would human-android marriage be an extremist Green idea or a progressive Green idea that will be accepted as normal in the future?

[Fran11]

57 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I find what counts as ‘extremest’ or ‘progressive’ to be an interesting idea. For example, at one time same-sex marriage was seen as both ‘extremist’ and ‘progressive’.  These days, would human-android marriage be an extremist Green idea or a progressive Green idea that will be accepted as normal in the future?

Yeah we can make guesses but who's really to say?

We'll have to wait and see...

It is close-minded either to discard anything or to totally buy into every random green-sounding thing.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Fran11

[Consept]

The trans-age guy got lost his court battle to change his age, he gets questioned on the trans-gender thing as well -

 

[seeking_brilliance]

I think the answer to this would to not identify with an age at all.  I've also toyed with the idea of not identifying with a race either. 

[Consept]

37 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

I think the answer to this would to not identify with an age at all.  I've also toyed with the idea of not identifying with a race either. 

You can and probably should do that on both counts, most likely we'll get there in however many years. The issues come in for now when you want others to recognise that, or you want to be legally recognised as whatever age or race or no age or race. For example there could be issues with taking a pension in your country dependent on age. 

[seeking_brilliance]

36 minutes ago, Consept said:

You can and probably should do that on both counts, most likely we'll get there in however many years. The issues come in for now when you want others to recognise that, or you want to be legally recognised as whatever age or race or no age or race. For example there could be issues with taking a pension in your country dependent on age. 

If we don't start now, the government will never follow... Change starts at the bottom, or in other words from within.  I can see myself forgetting that I'm Caucasian, but be able to ace a government document.

Many other races right now may not have such an easy time because they aren't granted the luxury of forgetting, and for that I'm deeply sorry. I hope it gets better soon. 

I think that if we set an example, the ones in suffering will trickle in and bring it back to their camps. 

Age may be harder to forget, and as you said, we still rely on financial support to survive our most physically painful years... 

Does anyone know at what stage this change would come? Yellow? I'm not completely educated in the spiral lore... 

Edited September 13, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[Carl-Richard]

22 hours ago, Fran11 said:

It's reinforcing them in a way. If I am old and happen to like things that society considers to be "for younger people", by changing my age I'm actually convalidating that these things are in fact for yonger people. 

"In a way", sure, but it's atleast one way to do it in practice. Do you have any practical solutions?

 

22 hours ago, Fran11 said:

If people don't get offended by someone asking them the very thing they are pushing society to deny, there would be no problem. But that's too optimistic in my experience.

This is another conflation of social identity and biological/birth age. People who want to be treated a certain way aren't automatically trying to deny the fact that they were born a certain time ago. Just treat them the way they want to be treated.

[Forestluv]

On 9/12/2020 at 10:29 AM, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Being 'trans age' is the most stupid fucking thing I have ever heard.

You now know what it’s like for a conservative looking at ‘trans-gender’.

[Fran11]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

"In a way", sure, but it's atleast one way to do it in practice. Do you have any practical solutions?

I'm not opposed to these kind of solutions per se, but I a line must be drawn at some point becouse it is impossible to allow everybody to legally force everybody else to respect their identifications.

Also, trans gender and trans age are notions that deppend on prior social stereotypes in continuos revision and deconstruction. So my guess is that probably in the future these will be discarded and only the freedoms that they allowed will remain, without changing an irrelevant label becausd stereotypes will be gone. This may take generations.

 

[Hatfort]

I won't say being a transage can't be something real in a sense, some old people look and behave like younger and the opposite as well. That's fine, who cares, I do feel younger myself sometimes. So what, should we allow people change their legal birth date at will? Please, someone answer me honestly yes to this question.

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

I won't say being a transage can't be something real in a sense, some old people look and behave like younger and the opposite as well. That's fine, who cares, I do feel younger myself sometimes. So what, should we allow people change their legal birth date at will? Please, someone answer me honestly yes to this question.

Im gonna be annoying and answer your question with a question - Should we allow people to change their birth gender at will?