Talked To A Stage Blue Jehovah's Witness, It Blew My Mind !

[Akemrelax]

So just today I was at the park minding my own business, sitting away from the crowd. taking in the sunlight, when a young teenager stopped his bike right next to me to start talking. We chatted a bit about trivial stuff for a while. I noticed that his English was not that clear. He had a thick accent, a stutter, and frequently forgot words. English is not his first language I thought.

Then out of nowhere, he brought in God. We were talking about the unemployment due to Covid-19. He asked me do I believe we will work without an employer in the future. The smirk on his face made me realize he was not really interested in my answer. So without seeking to argue, I said probably not, since we need someone to teach us how to do things. Then he started saying how he believes that it will happen, again and again. At this point I knew he was a believer but didn't know if in communism or some religion. He was not rude at all.

He then asked me if I believed in God. To which I said, ya kinda. He then proceeds to make me read some verses and talk about things he believes in. This goes on for a while. I don't engage, just nod my head. A lot of repetition of words and phrases. "Word of God", "God promised us", "God said", etc. I asked which church he is from? He said he's a Jehovah's Witness. I've heard my friends talk about JWs in our area and saw some of them standing on the corners but I never had the (mis)fortune to talk to one. In between this, I asked him how does he know the Bible is the word of God? This kind of stumped him. But he basically pointed to a verse in the Bible which said 'the scripture is God inspired". Previously I had mentioned if you don't know it is written by God how can you trust anything in it? It didn't compute. From what I can gather he was not that intelligent. After the advertisement session I basically said, "well, look at the time! I need to go". 

The little glimpse I had of his mind completely blew me away. He was so sincere about what he said. It made me realize the sneakiness of survival and self-bias. From now on I will be more vigilant of my own self-bias and survival, I don't want to waste my life trapped in a mind virus. He was so sincere, completely unaware of survival happening. Everything was subconsciously happening for him, he had no consciousness. 

When I was talking to him it made me feel like I was so much smarter than him. To me he seems mentally ill. He definitely seems learning disabled. I have talked to religious people in the past, but he was for sure the craziest of them all by far. We all have self-bias, just like him, but less so (or a different type of self bias). I wonder how are everyday people are similar to him in politics (left and right), religion, science, etc. Now on I will look for self-bias a lot more in others, we ALL have it, no exception. Talking to him made me more vigilant and I hope everyone here also takes self-bias and survival seriously. Think critically about things, don't accept things because they appear true or feel good.

The best thing that could possibly happen to him is for him to become an atheist. It seems unlikely that he will go beyond orange/blue atheism, this is assuming he ever questions his beliefs. It seems crazy. He seemed crazy. I think this has to do with the mental health crisis in developed countries. Pretty sure such people are unstable and go to such belief systems like fringe religions and political causes to get some stability. And to think, as Leo says, such people are the majority in the world... I scarcely believe it!

I wonder if there's a genetic or innate component to intelligence (not limited to IQ), because it seems that guy can never get to the levels of intelligence of a lot of people.

Question everything! Question ideas dearest to you! Read authors you disagree with! Keep your mind open! Learn things! Increase your perspective! Stay vigilant!

[Akemrelax]

It honestly scared me to realize the type of people there are!

Smokers, drug addicts, religious nuts, political extremists, cultists, racists, and more just walking around looking normal. 

[Artsu]

Atheism is not a good thing.

Agnosticism is ok if you're searching for answers still, but atheism is a sure answer and it is the wrong answer.

[Heart of Space]

I actually enjoy sharing perspectives with religious people.  I've had great conversations about the general nature of things like God and sin. 

The conversation usually falls apart and they get a bit triggered once you start to ask basic questions about the dogmatic nature of the religion.  Like for example if you question specifics of their holy books.  As much as I try to use non-triggering language and show that I'm genuine and altruistic in my curiosity, it's very hard for people to not get at least a little upset.  

In terms of Atheism being a good thing for this particular kid.  I don't know, it could be bad for him.  I don't think atheism is necessarily good for the average person.  A lot of people really genuinely need religion to be a moral person, or to feel some sense or purpose and be at peace with their existence.   

[Parththakkar12]

@Akemrelax  I've been there, a Stage Blue dogmatic fundamentalist religious person when I was a teen. When I got out of my house and into college at 17-18, I got exposed to Orange for the first time after which I grew. I have a strong Blue foundation of hard work, discipline, religion, morality, desire for social cohesion, good manners, etc. I was dogmatically forced to meditate when I was a kid. I didn't like it very much back then but it's really helping me now!

Because my foundation is so strong, I grew very fast through the other stages. The stronger your belief is in religion, the more you'll feel betrayed when you learn that it isn't the Absolute Truth, the more aggressively you'll question it and move towards atheism. This kid seems to have a desire for the Truth and he looks like he's on the path. Only he's been indoctrinated with Blue. When he learns that it isn't the Truth, he'll most likely start asking the good questions that lead him to the Truth.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Akemrelax]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

This kid seems to have a desire for the Truth and he looks like he's on the path.

No. He seemed to have a learning disability. Like, his IQ was visibly low. Lol 

What religion? And how did your parents handle it? 

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

In terms of Atheism being a good thing for this particular kid.  I don't know, it could be bad for him.  I don't think atheism is necessarily good for the average person.  A lot of people really genuinely need religion to be a moral person, or to feel some sense or purpose and be at peace with their existence. 

There are places where majority of people are atheists or don't derive morals from religions. I think average people can derive morals without religion. Maybe from social norms and culture. 

Yes, some people, maybe like the guy I met, may only be functional within a belief system, idk, I'm not a psychologist so I don't have too strong of an opinion on it.  

Your morals come from the same place you choose your religion minus the book. Like, the same way someone determined Christianity is the best religion is the same way one would determine what is good/bad.

2 hours ago, Artsu said:

Agnosticism is ok if you're searching for answers still, but atheism is a sure answer and it is the wrong answer.

I like the term A-theist better. It means lack of - belief. 

A-gnostic usually means one who lacks - knowledge of God AND who cannot ever know God. 

If somebody asked me about Santa Claus, I would say, "I don't believe in it", and that also would imply I am open to it. I wouldn't say "I don't know". I like the term atheist, it's a matter of preference I guess. 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Akemrelax

[Parththakkar12]

7 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

What religion? And how did your parents handle it? 

Hinduism. My mom believes in praying to certain Hindu deities. She does so religiously everyday. Meditation is done like a traditional ritual in my family. This was started by my mom. By praying I mean chanting mantras, reading scriptures, etc.

[Heart of Space]

2 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

There are places where majority of people are atheists or don't derive morals from religions. I think average people can derive morals without religion. Maybe from social norms and culture. 

Yes, some people, maybe like the guy I met, may only be functional within a belief system, idk, I'm not a psychologist so I don't have too strong of an opinion on it.  

Your morals come from the same place you choose your religion minus the book. Like, the same way someone determined Christianity is the best religion is the same way one would determine what is good/bad.

Are you talking like Sweden, or like Japan?  I agree, it's very possible to derive morals without religion, in fact, I think it's preferable.  I wasn't trying to make that lame religious argument that you can't be moral without religion.

I more refer to uneducated people from 3rd world countries types, similar to what you describe here.   Without religion for a lot of these types of people I feel it is difficult to come to terms with your suffering and have a sense purpose in a positive direction.   Religion can do both those things, albeit in a flawed and dogmatic way.  Obviously, a more educated person in a modern society see's the flaws in religion and is able to have some basic ethical philosophy that they lives their lives by.  Again though, even those people fall prey to a Machiavellian Nihilistic world view, but that's a different conversation.  

[Akemrelax]

19 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

I more refer to uneducated people from 3rd world countries types, similar to what you describe here.   Without religion for a lot of these types of people I feel it is difficult to come to terms with your suffering and have a sense purpose in a positive direction.   Religion can do both those things, albeit in a flawed and dogmatic way.  Obviously, a more educated person in a modern society see's the flaws in religion and is able to have some basic ethical philosophy that they lives their lives by.  Again though, even those people fall prey to a Machiavellian Nihilistic world view, but that's a different conversation. 

Yes absolutely. I think religion can be a relatively good thing in developing countries where life is hell. 

I think some people who are naturally not that intelligent/conscious in the developed world can use religion in an agnostic sort of way to combat Nihilism. I see some people doing it. Believing in vague principals of religion but having healthy skepticism, taking religion less literally and more metaphorically.

But I would say the ideal way to fight nihilism would be how Leo describes it in his videos which is to see through it, which can be hard if not impossible for everyday people. 

It's good that you mention nihilism cause religion and nihilism are closely linked. Blue uses beliefs to fight it, orange sort of ignores it and focuses on physical pleasures, and green seek higher pleasures like family, emotions, feelings, etc and believes in unverified ideas to fight it. It's not until yellow that we finally see nihilism (sadness because of meaninglessness) resolved. But that realization happens to individuals, I have no idea how we're going to do it to masses. It seems like a challenge for modern civilization.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Akemrelax

[Carl-Richard]

I've been trying to make my friends more interested in green. I want them to reach yellow in their lifetimes.

[Dragon Liege]

On 8/2/2020 at 0:38 AM, Akemrelax said:

I like the term A-theist better. It means lack of - belief. 

A-gnostic usually means one who lacks - knowledge of God AND who cannot ever know God. 

If somebody asked me about Santa Claus, I would say, "I don't believe in it", and that also would imply I am open to it. I wouldn't say "I don't know". I like the term atheist, it's a matter of preference I guess. 

 

I think it depends with agnostic and atheist. There's people like TJ Kirk who seem to be very certain about their belief that God doesn't exist. There are agnostics that are more open. Of course there's people who identify as atheist who are more open. There's also agnostics who believe it's impossible to know the origin of the universe. From my experience, atheists and agnostics seem to have a negative belief (believing something doesn't exist). It's still a belief.