The ten ox herding pictures

[Eren Eeager]

I didn't understand anything beyond the sixth pic starting from the bull rises, if God is the bull, what does it mean for God to rise, and then the self rises too and then reaching the source ??

What do all these pics mean, leo didn't explain those well

[JosephKnecht]

https://tricycle.org/magazine/ten-oxherding-pictures/ 

Read the article above. Maybe it would make things more clear.

It's hard to infer meaning from pictures. 

 

 

[Eren Eeager]

@Leo Gura can you help me understand those pics? 

 

[JosephKnecht]

4 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

@Leo Gura can you help me understand those pics? 

Nobody can't help you understand anything if you don't understand it for yourself. 

Understand that you don't need the help of anyone. You can do it on your own. That is the highest understanding. 

[Leo Gura]

Don't worry about it.

You can't understand advanced stages while never having experienced the early ones.

Focus on finding the Ox.

[traveler]

You are the Ox dreaming that it is a person on a search to find the Ox. The person can NOT find the Ox, the Ox can stop dreaming and then the person never was, and the Ox disappears as well, because it was only an idea/concept in the personal dream of finding ultimate fulfillment. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by traveler

[Nahm]

18 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

if God is the bull

Perhaps the bull is the finite mind / conditioning, and upon being tamed and ridden, it disappears just as it never was, leaving only the source. 

[Eren Eeager]

4 hours ago, traveler said:

You are the Ox dreaming that it is a person on a search to find the Ox. The person can NOT find the Ox, the Ox can stop dreaming and then the person never was, and the Ox disappears as well, because it was only an idea/concept in the personal dream of finding ultimate fulfillment. 

Okay but what does it mean then to find,tame and ride the ox 

Can you explain it from the beginning.

[traveler]

1 hour ago, Eren Eeager said:

Okay but what does it mean then to find,tame and ride the ox 

Can you explain it from the beginning.

I have no idea, it is part of the dream of future fulfillment through effort. There is literally nothing to do, because nothing is actually happening. This appearance is not real in the sense that it has consequences and needs to be fixed. Everything is whole, nothing is ever missing, because existence is a dream. The person is total void dreaming existence. There is already nothing, so everything done by the person is reinforcing the dream. Enlightenment is part of the dream aswell. This is whole beyond understanding, it is whole in the sense that there is no other, whatever is, is whole. The person wants enlightenment because it thinks it will improve it's existence, it thinks that enlightenment will bring it peace and will make everyone love it. This is totally outside of that dream and at the same time it is that dream. This is about death and not knowing, following a 10 step program to get to this, is just a joke. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by traveler

[Nak Khid]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:31 PM, Eren Eeager said:

I didn't understand anything beyond the sixth pic starting from the bull rises, if God is the bull, what does it mean for God to rise, and then the self rises too and then reaching the source ??

What do all these pics mean, leo didn't explain those well

 

 

This is his take on it and he mentions God several times but in Zen they don't talk about God generally and they don't say the Ox is God 
They say the Ox is in fact something transcended 

However Leo doesn't say the Ox is God

He says : "the Ox represents the practice and discipline required in seeking the dharma "

and 

"to catch a rabbit not to catch a snare when you have caught the rabbit you no longer need the snare
the Ox is used in the same way as a means of achieving awakening to Buddha nature we created a snare
called the Ox but once you have understood Buddha nature you no longer need the Ox"

Yes this would be the traditional Zen interpretation, the Ox is something that is eventually transcended

______________________________

Shinzen Young in these short videos on the Ten Bulls(ox)  he defines the ox as the nature of consciousness 

1) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8aN9O73lgg

2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PQonSiGkVE

3)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozca_5ifwQ0
_____________________________________________________________________

 

there are many resources here, various versions and commentary 

https://terebess.hu/english/oxindex.html

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Nak Khid