Veganism Or Vegetarianism?

[Ida]

45 minutes ago, otoumie said:

Have you Always been vegan by the way?

No I became vegan when I heard it existed when I was 16. Before I was vegetarian and before that I ate meat. 

46 minutes ago, otoumie said:

when I´m invited by family members... Does anyone have advices for this kind of situation?

My mothers family is always cool when it comes to making something for us vegans/vegetarians (my sister is trying to be vegan and my brother and mother prefer vegetarian food), with my fathers family, it's not that they don't want to do something for us, they are just very unfamiliar with that kind of eating and they are getting older and struggle much even with their own food. So with them we always make something at home and eat it at their house. At the beginning they thought it was stupid but they have come to accept it. So I would say, if the family you are visiting isn't making something for you or don't know how, then just say that you will take care of it, and maybe they would even wanna try what you make for yourself. 

But I hope it will turn well for you and that you'll enjoy it  

[ZenMonkey]

@otoumie You can find a lot of calcium in sesame seeds, brokkoli, cale, almonds etc. And don't care about where to get your protein from. Protein is everywhere, even in fruits. It's like really really hard to get a protein deficiency. Just ask where elephants get their protein from? If you want to build muscle mass you can go with beans, lentils, chickpeas... Because protein was the first nutrient to be discoverd it got so important.

The most important thing is to focus on a whole food plant based vegan diet with some variety in it. So if you do that you don't have to have in mind where to get every nutrient. But inform yourself for sure! That's very good and important!

The only thing to supplement is B12 and Vitamin D depending where you live and how much sunlight you get. But those are not vegan issues. Cows we eat that are only inside get supplemented B12 today as well because cows as well as humans would have normally eaten it with dirt. Some vegans do also do a blood test every now and then just to be sure.

Just tell your family members why you do it so they understand your decision. If you bring your own food you can also make it a bit easier for them. Maybe you can watch forks over knives with them.

So congratulations you took the first step to a better diet! Keep improving, there will be setbacks but what matters is if you can get back on your feet again. If you stick to it you will see soon the benefits and then it gets easy because you don't want to go back.

[otoumie]

@Ida Thanks for the advices !  I´m at my third day and even If I eat more than what I used to, I feel more hungry than usal and I can feel that I loose weight. Usually when I´m hungry, I start to eat bread with cheese, now that I go vegan, I take for ex. dried prunes or apples as snacks, which is certainly one of the reasons I loose weight.

However, my family is quite open when it comes to veganism/ vegetarinism. And if it bother them, I´ll do like you said by bringing my own food. It´s a good way to spread veganism ^^

 

 

@ZenMonkey

7 hours ago, ZenMonkey said:

 congratulations you took the first step to a better diet! Keep improving, there will be setbacks but what matters is if you can get back on your feet again. If you stick to it you will see soon the benefits and then it gets easy because you don't want to go back.

Thanks, It is challenging and fun for me to try vegan !  

7 hours ago, ZenMonkey said:

You can find a lot of calcium in sesame seeds, brokkoli, cale, almonds etc. And don't care about where to get your protein from. Protein is everywhere, even in fruits. It's like really really hard to get a protein deficiency. Just ask where elephants get their protein from? If you want to build muscle mass you can go with beans, lentils, chickpeas... Because protein was the first nutrient to be discoverd it got so important.

Many people don´t want to go vegan (or vegetarian) because they are afraid to not get enough protein. If it wasn´t for the taste of meat and their addiction to it, there won´t be any excuses.

I live in sweden and the sun isn´t coming by very often so I´ll probably buy Those supplements. How do you know about all these? have you read books or are you some kind of nutritionist..?

 

 

[ZenMonkey]

@otoumie I am interested and very passionated about this stuff and so wanted to really know what is the healthiest way to eat and did quite some research. And then you just stumble over a lot of facts. I read a lot in the internet and some books. I also find it helpful to watch some vegan youtube channels so you see how they do it and can copy that.

If you live in sweden you should supplement vitamin D for sure.

 

[otoumie]

@ZenMonkey (or anyone) A part from the negative effects on the planet, do you know if eggs does have negative effects on Health?  

[Clayman]

Try not to turn this into dogma debate ... It is self actualization forum after all. If you claim something please post the most reliable evidence for it. I am not writing to anyone specific, but I can see a lot of blabbermouth here.

[Soulbass]

I've been vegetarian for 6 years, here is my tricks :

- Almonds (calcium)

- Linseed oil (omega 3)

- Quinoa (iron)

- Brewer's yeast (all sorts of vitamins)

- Wheat germ (same)

- Sprouted seeds of all kinds (fenugreek for proteins) and sprouted bread.

- I occasionally eat shellfishes, for zinc and iodine (b3). I would prefer to kill an animal on my own, when it's for eating, but I don't have fishing skills.

B12 is the only thing that cannot be found easily in vegan/vegetarian food (this vitamin lies in the ground, when herbivorious eat grass and transform this vitamin, then it can be assimilated by carnivorous). The only way for vegan/vegetarian is synthetic B12. (Be carefull : Spiruline is a hoax/marketing, it cannot be assimilated).

Eat soy only if it's fermented, as tofu of miso. Never drink soy milk or unfermented soy products, because of estrogene.

If you'r vegan body builder : loaf with lupin flour and fenugreek seeds (a friend of mine who's vegan and fight at MMA told me this, there is 20 times more protein in there than any meat).

Eggs are important ! Cheese is ok, but milk is unnecessary, after you growed up.

Rice : ALWAYS the whole/brown thing, or there is not point eating it.

Some people says that avoiding gluten is good, even if you'r not allergic to gluten (see acid/alkaline). I didn't given a try yet, too lazy.

Black radishe is good for liver.

Don't over eat milk products in all cases (many diseases start here...)

As Leo said in his video, best is organic food, but depend on where you live on earth (it's probably easier to eat heathier if you live in a hobbit house, than big cities). Even if it cost more, think about giving your money to local farmers, than world wide companies). Sometimes the food we eat travalled 3 times around the world before we eat it.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Soulbass

[Phocus]

@Simon Zackrisson Hey Simon -

I looked into the website you posted (http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf) and this dietary advice is very concerning and looks extremely unhealthy from the perspective of something that is sustainable long term.  Especially considering that many scientific studies have concluded that saturated fat increases LDL (bad) cholesterol which causes heart disease!

• Study showing increase of LDL (bad) cholesterol caused by meat consumption: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7019459
• Study showing the correlation of LDL (bad) cholesterol and heart disease: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/22/2757.full.pdf
• Additional information on Heart Disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/#B1
• The American Heart Association recommends consuming less than 7% of total daily calories from fat which equates to 16 grams of fat per day, based on a 2,000 calorie per day diet here .

Below is an excerpt from the website as to what the diet permits:

3. What to Eat

Eat all you like

Meat: Any type, including beef, pork, game meat, chicken, etc. Feel free to eat the fat on the meat as well as the skin on the chicken. If possible try to choose organic or grass fed meat.

Fish and shellfish: All kinds: Fatty fish such as salmon, mackerel or herring are great. Avoid breading.

Eggs: All kinds: Boiled, fried, omelettes, etc. Preferably organic eggs.

Natural fat, high-fat sauces: Using butter and cream for cooking can make your food taste better and make you feel more satiated. Try a Béarnaise or Hollandaise sauce, check the ingredients or make it yourself. Coconut oil and olive oil are also good options.

Vegetables that grow above ground: All kinds of cabbage, such as cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage and Brussels sprouts. Asparagus, zucchini, eggplant, olives, spinach, mushrooms, cucumber, lettuce, avocado, onions, peppers, tomatoes etc.

Dairy products: Always select full-fat options like real butter, cream (40% fat), sour cream, Greek/Turkish yogurt and high-fat cheeses. Be careful with regular milk and skim milk as they contain a lot of milk sugar. Avoid flavored, sugary and low-fat products.

Nuts: Great for a TV treat instead of candy (ideally in moderation).

Berries: Okay in moderation, if you are not a super strict or sensitive. Great with whipped cream.

 

To highlight some particularly concerning "rules" for this diet:

• "Eat All you like"
• "Feel free to eat the fat on the meat as well as the skin on the chicken"
• "Natural fat, high-fat sauces: Using butter and cream for cooking can make your food taste better and make you feel more satiated. Try a Béarnaise or Hollandaise sauce, check the ingredients or make it yourself. Coconut oil and olive oil are also good options."
• "Always select full-fat options like real butter, cream (40% fat), sour cream, Greek/Turkish yogurt and high-fat cheeses. Be careful with regular milk and skim milk as they contain a lot of milk sugar"

Just using your own intuition, does it makes sense that to achieve optimal health someone should consume large amounts of saturated fatty foods such as cooked animal fat, animal skin, eggs (I address eggs below), whole fat dairy products and creams but RESTRICT the quantities of things consumed such as fruits, beans, whole grain rice, lentils, quinoa, peas and oats?  There have been numerous studies that have correlated the consumption of animal products to heart disease and a multitude of cancers (including one of the largest observational studies ever conducted called The China Study here).

Now I realize that people are able to lose weight and stabilize or reverse diabetes but that probably has more to do with removing the enormous quantities of refined sugar that are present in the SAD than it does with consuming gluttonous amounts of deadly saturated fat.

They are offering an enormous amount of (scientifically bad) dietary and cooking advice... for free.  They do not have any advertisements on their site and they are not selling any products.  They also employ a staff of PHDs who cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per year each.  I won't speculate any further.

@otoumie Below is some information about the health risks associated with consuming eggs:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=92

"While organizations like the American Heart Association (AHA) allow for regular consumption of eggs in a meal plan, they typically warn that eggs are difficult to include because of their high cholesterol content and potential for increasing risk of heart disease. For persons with health blood cholesterol levels not needing cholesterol-lowering drugs, the AHA recommends a maximum of 300 milligrams of cholesterol per day from food. Since one conventionally produced egg contains about 180-220 milligrams of cholesterol, about two-thirds of the daily limit gets used up by consumption of one egg..."

Also, here is some information about what cholesterol is:

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/hbc

"Your body needs some cholesterol to make hormones, vitamin D, and substances that help you digest foods. Your body makes all the cholesterol it needs. However, cholesterol also is found in some of the foods you eat."

There is no amount of dietary cholesterol that is "good" for you, although, just like other toxins and things that we ingest our bodies are capable of processing small amounts of it without experiencing very many negative side effects.  That being said, if you're designing a diet for optimal health, is it better to include only small amounts of health damaging substances or none at all?

[ZenMonkey]

@Phocus Very good post!

@otoumie One thing I encountered with willpower: Phocus showed that it's unhealthy unless you only eat small amounts. I always find it way easier to eat 100% vegan than 99%. You just need much less willpower. But that's just my experience!

Also one more thing about B12: There are different forms of B12 and our body can absorbe some better than others. The one absorbed best is Methylcobalamin. Make sure you get that one. Either as lozenge or injection or some other form.

And vitamin D: a bad mood or getting ill very often can be a sign of a deficiency.

[Ida]

19 hours ago, otoumie said:

I feel more hungry than usal and I can feel that I loose weight.

If it's a bad thing, then you can find vegan bread and cheese too. You can find fake meat and make "copies" of all the famous recipes of your country. In that way your meal should be ok heavy. There is also a lot of plant milks so you could make milkshakes/smoothies. Also with a blender you can make various spreads for bread, if you want to eat bread at all.

[Simon Zackrisson]

Hello @Phocus

I do appreciate that you are looking out for people's health. Genuinely.

I can understand that, from your perspective, and from the outdated science you're invested in, that it may appear as if the dangers you're describing are accurate. I do understand that it may seem as it would be "cause of death: suicide by food", if the old narrative was to be true. I would probably have thought the same as you, before I acknowledged all the new data that's in.

We might probably disagree a lot. 

We have different perspectives, certain dogma, certain preferences, perhaps different body types.. (idk bout that last one though ) 

 

So, even if it may be easy for both of us to become frustrated, I don't really have an interest in conflicting. 

Not saying you can't call me out for being outrageous or smth like that, I will do the same for you
 

But what I would like, is that in the end, if we can't yet find mutual understanding, that we can at least agree to disagree. 

That the phocus should be on arguments and not on the person.

It is more powerful to construct friends of people then enemies  

And when other members read the conversation, it's good demonstration to show that engagement can be without motivation from a personal emotional crusade, that it instead is one that is held in respect to sober discussion. 

Not saying you weren't interested in that from the beginning, it's just reflecting my thoughts.

So, let us begin. 

 

3 ...

2 ...

1 ...

 

FIGHT

jk (=

 

On 2/22/2016 at 0:17 AM, Phocus said:

@Simon Zackrisson Hey Simon -

I looked into the website you posted (http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf) and this dietary advice is very concerning and looks extremely unhealthy from the perspective of something that is sustainable long term.  Especially considering that many scientific studies have concluded that saturated fat increases LDL (bad) cholesterol which causes heart disease!

• Study showing increase of LDL (bad) cholesterol caused by meat consumption: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7019459

"JAMA. 1981 Aug 7;246(6):640-4.

Effect of ingestion of meat on plasma cholesterol of vegetarians.

Sacks FM, Donner A, Castelli WP, Gronemeyer J, Pletka P, Margolius HS, Landsberg L, Kass EH.

Abstract

In a controlled trial, 21 strict vegetarians were studied prospectively for eight weeks: a two-week control period of the usual vegetarian diet was followed by four weeks, during which 250 g of beef was added isocalorically to the daily vegetarian diet and then by two weeks of the control diet. Plasma high-density lipoprotein-cholesterol did not change during the study, whereas plasma total cholesterol rose significantly by 19% at the end of the meat-eating period. Systolic blood pressure (BP) increased significantly during the meat eating by 3% over control values, whereas diastolic BP showed no major changes. Plasma renin activity, prostaglandin A and E levels, and urinary kallikrein, norepinephrine, and epinephrine excretions were within normal limits and did not change notably throughout the trial. The study suggests an adverse effect of consumption of beef on plasma lipid and BP levels." 

 

Impressive. A study done 1981, with a whole of 21 test subjects! With a time period of two months, and no follow up. Really need to say more?

I'm usually way too retarded to interpret studies, but this one screams uncertainty.

According to people who are more educated as to be able to correctly internalize scientific data however, I think science has come a long way since the eighties. The suggested correlation in the study turned out to be inaccurate. If you'd like to see some of the research that this is based on, have a look at the results that science is concerned with now, in the timeline that we're currently living in. 

On 2/22/2016 at 0:17 AM, Phocus said:

• Study showing the correlation of LDL (bad) cholesterol and heart disease: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/22/2757.full.pdf

While it is indeed correct that unmanaged levels of LDL cholesterol can be unhealthy, it is necessary to keep a balanced amount of LDL cholesterol in your system - you do need LDL too.

I feel decently informed on the very superficial level regarding cholesterol, if you'd like to you can check out my current understanding of this matter:

Link to my comment about cholesterol

 

In short, HDL cholesterol, so called good one, is increased by natural saturated fats, such a eggs or butter. 

In short, LDL cholesterol, so called bad one, is increased by a diet of carbohydrates. 

 

This is especially true for the refined one: sugar. But also the other slower carbohydrates: potatoes, pasta, bread, rice. Did you know that these actually become slowly processed to sugar in your body?

Quote

•  Additional information on Heart Disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/#B1
• The American Heart Association recommends consuming less than 7% of total daily calories from fat which equates to 16 grams of fat per day, based on a 2,000 calorie per day diet here .

http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/science

I suggest revising your perspectives as so they are in accord with the latest reviews in science.

On 2/22/2016 at 0:17 AM, Phocus said:

Below is an excerpt from the website as to what the diet permits:

3. What to Eat

Eat all you like

Meat: Any type, including beef, pork, game meat, chicken, etc. Feel free to eat the fat on the meat as well as the skin on the chicken. If possible try to choose organic or grass fed meat.

Fish and shellfish: All kinds: Fatty fish such as salmon, mackerel or herring are great. Avoid breading.

Eggs: All kinds: Boiled, fried, omelettes, etc. Preferably organic eggs.

Natural fat, high-fat sauces: Using butter and cream for cooking can make your food taste better and make you feel more satiated. Try a Béarnaise or Hollandaise sauce, check the ingredients or make it yourself. Coconut oil and olive oil are also good options.

Vegetables that grow above ground: All kinds of cabbage, such as cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage and Brussels sprouts. Asparagus, zucchini, eggplant, olives, spinach, mushrooms, cucumber, lettuce, avocado, onions, peppers, tomatoes etc.

Dairy products: Always select full-fat options like real butter, cream (40% fat), sour cream, Greek/Turkish yogurt and high-fat cheeses. Be careful with regular milk and skim milk as they contain a lot of milk sugar. Avoid flavored, sugary and low-fat products.

Nuts: Great for a TV treat instead of candy (ideally in moderation).

Berries: Okay in moderation, if you are not a super strict or sensitive. Great with whipped cream.

Quote

To highlight some particularly concerning "rules" for this diet:

• "Eat All you like"
• "Feel free to eat the fat on the meat as well as the skin on the chicken"
• "Natural fat, high-fat sauces: Using butter and cream for cooking can make your food taste better and make you feel more satiated. Try a Béarnaise or Hollandaise sauce, check the ingredients or make it yourself. Coconut oil and olive oil are also good options."
• "Always select full-fat options like real butter, cream (40% fat), sour cream, Greek/Turkish yogurt and high-fat cheeses. Be careful with regular milk and skim milk as they contain a lot of milk sugar"

---------------

Quote

Just using your own intuition, does it makes sense that to achieve optimal health someone should consume large amounts of saturated fatty foods such as cooked animal fat, animal skin, eggs (I address eggs below), whole fat dairy products and creams but RESTRICT the quantities of things consumed such as fruits, beans, whole grain rice, lentils, quinoa, peas and oats? 

Damn, I was going to ask you virtually the same thing. 

How is it even possible that you could come to the conclusion that we are designed to eat a diet that is so new to our body, it is comparable to the last day of an entire year? We have NEVER eaten this much carbohydrates. 

The age of our species is the first point, the age of agriculture in second:

• 3 200 000 years
• ......10 000 years

What we are, what the human body evolved as, is hunter-gatherers.

Also, the fruits you see today in stores are Nothing like they were back in the day.

Quote

There have been numerous studies that have correlated the consumption of animal products to heart disease and a multitude of cancers (including one of the largest observational studies ever conducted called The China Study here).

Again, consider updating your knowledge. I don't recommend relying on outdated science.

The China Study, released 2005, has been debunked long time ago. It's bad enough that the study was based on observational data, which cannot prove causation, however, it is even worse: The numbers are cherrypicked. 

Example:

Quote

Now I realize that people are able to lose weight and stabilize or reverse diabetes but that probably has more to do with removing the enormous quantities of refined sugar that are present in the SAD than it does with consuming gluttonous amounts of deadly saturated fat.

We do see eye to eye regarding sugar. I think most camps, despite faction, agree on this. Sugar is fucking terrible for human health.

I think that might be one reason as to why many people are experiencing positive results from changing from the worst diet, the standard western diet, to a less bad diet, the vegan diet. The direct sugar intake is mostly cut out in vegan diet, correct? 

 

However, as I said before, carbohydrates becomes sugar in your body. So, it's good that one is not consuming the poison in its direct form, which is the worst, however one is still being filled with sugar in a slower way as carbohydrates are consumed. Who'd figured. 

Quote

They are offering an enormous amount of (scientifically bad) dietary and cooking advice... for free.  They do not have any advertisements on their site and they are not selling any products.  They also employ a staff of PHDs who cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per year each.  I won't speculate any further.

Now I'm not following you.

Are you talking about the website www.dietdoctor.com? 

If so, then you don't have to speculate anything, just check your eyesight for failing vision. They clearly state how they are financed: by paying members.
This is one of the first things you see when you go to the main page on the website.

Quote

@otoumie Below is some information about the health risks associated with consuming eggs:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=92

"While organizations like the American Heart Association (AHA) allow for regular consumption of eggs in a meal plan, they typically warn that eggs are difficult to include because of their high cholesterol content and potential for increasing risk of heart disease. For persons with health blood cholesterol levels not needing cholesterol-lowering drugs, the AHA recommends a maximum of 300 milligrams of cholesterol per day from food. Since one conventionally produced egg contains about 180-220 milligrams of cholesterol, about two-thirds of the daily limit gets used up by consumption of one egg..."

 More outdated science. Neverending. A joke about flat earth is in place.

Quote

Also, here is some information about what cholesterol is:

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/hbc

"Your body needs some cholesterol to make hormones, vitamin D, and substances that help you digest foods. Your body makes all the cholesterol it needs. However, cholesterol also is found in some of the foods you eat."

Incorrect. This is a retarded oversimplification. As we both know, there are different types of cholesterol. Not only fucking one. 

On 2/8/2016 at 7:39 PM, Simon Zackrisson said:

A diet of saturated fat increases the amount of positive HDL cholesterol. 

A diet of carbohydrates increases the amount of negative LDL cholesterol. 

 

-------------------------

 

Quote

There is no amount of dietary cholesterol that is "good" for you, although, just like other toxins and things that we ingest our bodies are capable of processing small amounts of it without experiencing very many negative side effects.  That being said, if you're designing a diet for optimal health, is it better to include only small amounts of health damaging substances or none at all?

I've read that you can play a funny game with people who insist that cholesterol is dangerous to eat.

The game is to simply ask for a single study that shows this.

so can i haz study 4 dis pls

 

------------------------------

Wow, okay, so you survived the wall of text. Glad you made it out alive.  
I'd like to close with the statement that while it may be tough to do this as a vegan, it's actually perfectly possible to eat LCHF as a vegetarian.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Simon Zackrisson
Edit: Corrected the age of humanity to a more generous timeline, 3 million instead of 3,5 million. Edit 2: Corrected the timeline again, to 3.2 million, which is the age of "Lucy".

[Phocus]

@Simon Zackrisson Oh lord.

This is the equivalent of trying to debate with a smoker whether or not smoking causes lung cancer and then referencing studies performed by tabaco companies as evidence that it doesn't.  Honestly, I would spend the hour to two that it takes to point out all of the logical fallacies I just read and link more studies and explain the studies I already linked if I thought you were open to changing your view point.

If you want to eat fat, go eat fat.  Just do yourself a favor and get regular blood work done so you don't end up with a surprise stroke or heart attack by the time you're 35 from advanced atherosclerosis.  Besides, if it turns out that every single cardiologist and heart surgeon in the entire world and the last 40 years of medical research performed in every country around the world are wrong, then you'll have documented evidence that proves it!

I am not saying that can't eat meat; you can have a perfectly healthy diet eating fish, meat, cheese, dairy, ect...  But a diet based on consuming the quantities of saturated fat described on that website are just not advisable.

Or you're just trolling someone who is genuinely trying to help you.  In which case... you got me!

Google: define atherosclerosis

"a disease of the arteries characterized by the deposition of plaques of fatty material on their inner walls."

deposition of plaques of fatty material on their inner walls

plaques of fatty material

fatty material

FAT

[Simon Zackrisson]

@Phocus Powerful response.

 

Providing studies to back up your viewpoint, having the audacity to think that you are the only one that can do this. When then pointed to the endless updated studies that debunk your 35 year old science, you become defensive about dogmatics and try to use an irrelevant comparison: 

11 hours ago, Phocus said:

the equivalent of trying to debate with a smoker whether or not smoking causes lung cancer and then referencing studies performed by tabaco companies as evidence that it doesn't

Hilarious. 

THE EARTH IS FLAT. MY OUTDATED SCIENCE SAYS SO

 

11 hours ago, Phocus said:

if I thought you were open to changing your view point.

It's not like I took time attempting to convey my hope for a calm and constructive discussion in my last post. 

 

11 hours ago, Phocus said:

if it turns out that every single cardiologist and heart surgeon in the entire world and the last 40 years of medical research performed in every country around the world are wrong, then you'll have documented evidence that proves it!

Don't be dishonest. The most recent research done is in favor of fat. 

Why are you so hesitant to read the updated science? Wouldn't you want to be up with the best information? Isn't this what it's about, to be engaged in truth and objectivity? 

11 hours ago, Phocus said:

Google: define atherosclerosis

"a disease of the arteries characterized by the deposition of plaques of fatty material on their inner walls."

deposition of plaques of fatty material on their inner walls

plaques of fatty material

fatty material

FAT

That gotta be the cutest dishonesty I've read in quite some time.

If you consume sugar, does that make your body sweet?

CUS SUGAR IS SWEET AND ACCORDING TO MY MISERABLE FUCKING FAILED UNDERSTANDING OF THE HUMAN BODY, IF U PUT SWEET THINGS IN UR BODY THEN U BECOME SWEET. ALSO, NEVER EAT THE MINERAL IRON, CUS IF U EAT IT, THEN U WILL BECOME A FUCKING ROCK

 

"bro its not good to have a sweet body"

not good to have a sweet body

have a sweet body

sweet body

SWEET

 

The human body is quite complex, one can only laugh rolling on the floor at this logic.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

11 hours ago, Phocus said:

all of the logical fallacies

Why don't you go ahead and demonstrate even one single logical fallacy I made.

What I think is going on here, is projection my friend.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Simon Zackrisson
Typo

[Phocus]

Simon... buddy... You are being lied to and the more I try to show you how you're being lied to, the more aggressively you defend them.  It's really kind of a sad situation.  I know 3 people who have had heart attacks in the last 3 years. 

• I know what they ate before the heart attacks.
• I talked to them about their diets following the heart attacks.
• I know how their dietary changes effected their levels of LDL cholesterol.

They cut out meat, dairy, eggs and processed foods and within a few months their bad cholesterol plummets.  Every.  Single.  Time.  But you've got this scammy internet science providing misleading information so I can't tell you otherwise.  You're just going to have to go experience it for yourself when either you or someone you know starts having health problems.

Regardless of what anyone says or thinks, the real test is blood work.  Just do yourself a favor and make sure you're getting it done.

[Phocus]

5 hours ago, Simon Zackrisson said:

Don't be dishonest. The most recent research done is in favor of fat. 

Why are you so hesitant to read the updated science? Wouldn't you want to be up with the best information? Isn't this what it's about, to be engaged in truth and objectivity? 

Send me any information you have on fat and I will read it.

[Dhana Choko]

Simon, what would you lose if you did not eat meat, eggs and butter? What part of your identity would be threatened if you did not eat these things?

[Simon Zackrisson]

Phocus, buddy.

I don't think we're getting further here.

You haven't tried to show anything, just accused the other participant of trolling and using logical fallacies while refusing to actually address anything I've said, or considered the up-to-date science provided.

It's right here, documented in black and white, for everyone to read.

[Simon Zackrisson]

1 hour ago, Dhana Choko said:

Simon, what would you lose if you did not eat meat, eggs and butter? 

The continuation of good health, and the enjoyment of eating these.

I rely on science, which if done correctly, attempts to be free from emotional desires of what should be true, and dogma. 

A methodology that is under constant change, always updating itself, in aspiration to reach the highest understanding currently possible.

1 hour ago, Dhana Choko said:

What part of your identity would be threatened if you did not eat these things?

Rather interesting that you're attempting to use the ego card in a discussion. Insinuating that I've made an identity around eating these things.

Well, two can play that game. 

 

Dhana, what would you lose if you did not eat grains, vegetables and fruits? What part of your identity would be threatened if you did not eat these things?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Simon Zackrisson
Typo

[Phocus]

7 minutes ago, Simon Zackrisson said:

Phocus, buddy.

I don't think we're getting further here.

You haven't tried to show anything, just accused the other participant of trolling and using logical fallacies while refusing to actually address anything I've said, or considered the up-to-date science provided.

It's right here, documented in black and white, for everyone to read.

It seems like more people are interested in this subject so I'll go through and respond to your posts over in the LCHF thread here.

[Hunter Arrington]

Check out Ido Portal's philosophy on this topic. It has most insight coming from the most experience. Allot of it has to do with what you want actually want to do with you body. Do you want to cycle? Do you want to do yoga, bodybuilding to an extent, anything that required a certain type of diet? Heck, even working on stability and balance requires something special. An all vegetarian diet does not constitute the best diet for every routine. Then you question...isn't the routine then just flawed? Not necessarily,