Is there an external world?

[r0ckyreed]

I have been contemplating the nature of existence and the external world.  I have been questioning the perspectives of idealism- only mind exists, external world does not, and realism- external world exists.  I have watched many of Leo's videos regarding these issues, but I thought I would try to verify and experience the truth rather than just believing him.  Here is an example of my current inquiry:

What is existence?

What does it mean to say something exists?  Does it mean that an object or world is appearing within consciousness or is the object or world "there?"  What does it mean to say that an object is appearing within consciousness?

The first person experience is the only perspective of reality that I have.  I cannot know if there is a third-person perspective because all I have of life is a first-person.  Is this true?  Well, the only way I can know anything exists in the world is through my own personal experience.  Is this true?  How else can I know and experience the world if it is not from this first-person perspective?  Any notions of a world outside of my experience is imaginary from my first-person perspective.

But is the world that I imagine that is outside of my direct experience real and does it exist?  If there really is no external world, how is detective work possible?  How is it possible that I am affected by things outside of my experience?  But if there is an external reality, then what would it be doing if there were no observers?  

If the universe had no observers, wouldn't it be like there was no universe at all?  From the perspective of not have any observers in reality would be like nothing ever existed, but would there still be a universe that exists?  What does it mean to say that something exists but that cannot be observed?  Then again, how is it that I am affected by things outside of experience if there is no external world?  For example, someone could kill me in my sleep or I could get hit by a car from behind.  If there is no external world, then how is it that I am affected by things outside of my experience and again, how is detective work possible?

 I know that there is no database in the universe about how a murder happened.  A detective is relying on concept and imagination to solve murder cases, but isn't there a world from which the crime scene is happening?  Just because there is no witness, does not mean that something does not exist right?  Where is this typing occurring and who is reading my message?  Aren't I already assuming that such a world exists?

 

This is my contemplation, I still have not found an answer besides the point that I just do not know.  I will continue to remain skeptical about whether there is or not an external world until I find out for myself.  Can anyone help me?  I am rather new to contemplation and have just finished Peter Ralston's Book of Not Knowing.  

Thank you for your help!  

Edited April 9, 2020 by r0ckyreed

[Mu_]

Before asking if there is an external world first find out whats aware.  What is the I or You in the experience of whats constantly happening?  Focus on the sense of it, feel it, see it.  Then ask as you let that in, ask yourself, if thats what "you" are or feel like in your body or somewhere, then what's aware of this.

Wouldn't that be more you then the supposed you that this awareness is revealing  or highlighting?

[Inliytened1]

13 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

I have been contemplating the nature of existence and the external world.  I have been questioning the perspectives of idealism- only mind exists, external world does not, and realism- external world exists.  I have watched many of Leo's videos regarding these issues, but I thought I would try to verify and experience the truth rather than just believing him.  Here is an example of my current inquiry:

What is existence?

What does it mean to say something exists?  Does it mean that an object or world is appearing within consciousness or is the object or world "there?"  What does it mean to say that an object is appearing within consciousness?

The first person experience is the only perspective of reality that I have.  I cannot know if there is a third-person perspective because all I have of life is a first-person.  Is this true?  Well, the only way I can know anything exists in the world is through my own personal experience.  Is this true?  How else can I know and experience the world if it is not from this first-person perspective?  Any notions of a world outside of my experience is imaginary from my first-person perspective.

But is the world that I imagine that is outside of my direct experience real and does it exist?  If there really is no external world, how is detective work possible?  How is it possible that I am affected by things outside of my experience?  But if there is an external reality, then what would it be doing if there were no observers?  

If the universe had no observers, wouldn't it be like there was no universe at all?  From the perspective of not have any observers in reality would be like nothing ever existed, but would there still be a universe that exists?  What does it mean to say that something exists but that cannot be observed?  Then again, how is it that I am affected by things outside of experience if there is no external world?  For example, someone could kill me in my sleep or I could get hit by a car from behind.  If there is no external world, then how is it that I am affected by things outside of my experience and again, how is detective work possible?

 I know that there is no database in the universe about how a murder happened.  A detective is relying on concept and imagination to solve murder cases, but isn't there a world from which the crime scene is happening?  Just because there is no witness, does not mean that something does not exist right?  Where is this typing occurring and who is reading my message?  Aren't I already assuming that such a world exists?

 

This is my contemplation, I still have not found an answer besides the point that I just do not know.  I will continue to remain skeptical about whether there is or not an external world until I find out for myself.  Can anyone help me?  I am rather new to contemplation and have just finished Peter Ralston's Book of Not Knowing.  

Thank you for your help!  

You can become conscious that everything is being held within your consciousness if you inspect deeply enough.    An object has no backside.

Ask yourself the question - if a tree falls in the forest with no around around would it make a sound?  Does you notice the problem with this statement?   The whole question is framed towards the materialist paradigm, which is false.  

"If there is no external world, then how is it that I am affected by things outside of my experience and again, how is detective work possible?"

Notice that the very question only exists within your consciousness.  You are imagining the detective, what he is inspecting, and what he finds - just like you are willing all of reality into Being right now as God.

Now this will just seem like talk and shouldn't be taken on as dogma.  So i can't stress self inquiry enough.   You can have the epiphany that there is no physical you anywhere with proper self inquiry.  That there is no small self other than the idea of a you within the mind of God.  The book of not knowing is great for setting the framework for this as sitting in not knowing (quiet the mind and simply watch thoughts come and go)  can counterintuitively lead to these realizations and to awakening to no self.  This is a huge step because it can also lead to what you ARE.  Your true nature as Awareness itself.

These are the practices that worked for me.  If you have access to psychedelics it could also be a powerful tool but not mandatory for awakening.  Good luck sir!

 

[DLH]

18 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Is there an external world?

Yes and No, and everything in between.  It all depends on POV.  If you are perceiving it from God Consciousness, no there is no external world.   If your perceiving it from your “Physical Mind Consciousness”, yes there is an external, or let's call it peripheral reality, its all a POV.  (Don’t take the words literally, I am just trying to use words to explain something that is beyond words and symbols).

That does not mean you cannot be made aware of, or are not God Consciousness!  It just means you have been created by God Consciousness to have a limited, distinct, conscious POV to explore this particular physical reality.  It’s all a play on words, conscious POV and beliefs. 

From the human perspective (Physical Mind Consciousness, or Ego) you/me/us are distinct conscious perspectives of God exploring “self (s)”.  Humans that are aware they are God Consciousness are saying that there is no external reality, which is true from a God Conscious perspective.  Having said that, if God didn’t sub-divide its consciousness into smaller pockets of consciousness and allowed some freedom for these infinite pockets of consciousness to create formless and physical realities, dream states, and peripheral states of reality etc., (within God Consciousness), it (God, or All-That-Is) would be “limited”.   "It", as in God Consciousness, would have placed limits on its own freedom to explore all possible creative probable states of conscious, awareness and beingness.  

God, or All-That-Is, is “Not Limited”.

It has the power, awareness, and most absolute Love to create limited beings and entities, all in the name of, “Knowing Ones Self”, or "Its Self".  You are God consciousness and you are a limited being.  You are both!  Enjoy the journey, enjoy the limited freedom to explore this physical reality of knowing your “Self”, and that you are God, or All-That-Is, simultaneously!

There is no rush to return home to Full God Consciousness!  God, or the All-That-Is, has given you and its "self", the gift of perceived “Time” to explore your self, and Its Self! 

Don’t take my, or anyone else’s word, explore what resonates with you at this moment.  Explore, create, feel, touch, smell, listen, see every flavour, sensation, texture, thought, idea, imagination, belief, emotion, awareness, all the conscious professed layers and the interconnectedness with All-That-Is.  Get to “know thyself”, and all the possible and probable states of beingness, awareness and consciousness from within! 

A student sharing thoughts, ideas and beliefs!

Edited April 10, 2020 by DLH

[Inliytened1]

16 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

 

If the universe had no observers, wouldn't it be like there was no universe at all?  

You are RIGHT there.  

It IS itself.  Thats Infinity.

[r0ckyreed]

Thanks everybody for all of your replies! I sincerely appreciate all of your help!  How can I have a firsthand experience of Nothingness or God.  I can kinda understand it, but I would much rather experience it for myself than to take on as a belief like you all stated.  I have been contemplating a lot, but I am not sure how thinking about life will get me to the nature of life itself, God, Infinity, Non-dual Consciousness, etc.

In addition, how can we know that consciousness or nothingness exists? Isn’t it circular to say that we know consciousness exists because it is the space of that which all knowledge and experience is possible? If this is the case, can consciousness know itself to exist? If everything known to exist can only take place in consciousness, then what does it mean for something to exist, let only for consciousness to exist? 
 

How can I have an experience or know the nature of this Void, Consciousness or Nothingness? Can this Void be known through contemplation? Meditation? How? How can I contemplate that which I have never experienced? I assume that I have not experienced nothingness or I am experiencing it right now? If so, how can I get this epiphany of my true nature? Thanks.

Thank you!

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

How can I have a firsthand experience of Nothingness or God.  I can kinda understand it, but I would much rather experience it for myself than to take on as a belief like you all stated.  I have been contemplating a lot, but I am not sure how thinking about life will get me to the nature of life itself, God, Infinity, Non-dual Consciousness, etc.

‘You’ won’t have a firsthand experience of Nothingness or God, because ‘you’ does not ‘exist’ like ‘you’ think it does. And ‘you’ certainly can’t think your way there, since it is ‘transcendent’ of thought. It involves letting go / surrendering ‘you’ which not many ‘yous’ are willing to do because it is a form of dissolution. It’s all fun and games until someone loses an “i”. . . . 

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

In addition, how can we know that consciousness or nothingness exists?

This is a great question that can arise from a place of direct experience or that can arise from a mind trying to figure it out. Let’s take a peak and see what we’ve got. . .

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Isn’t it circular to say that we know consciousness exists because it is the space of that which all knowledge and experience is possible? If this is the case, can consciousness know itself to exist? If everything known to exist can only take place in consciousness, then what does it mean for something to exist, let only for consciousness to exist? 

Looks like the orientation is a mind trying to figure stuff out by constructing sandcastles of speculation in the hope of creating a concrete structure. There is nothing wrong with building conceptual sandcastles to explain reality. The problem comes when the mind doesn’t realize it’s shifting sand and that  form = formless. There is a realization of the substance of sand itself and that realization doesn’t arise when the mind is captivated by efforts to create stable form.

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

How can I have an experience or know the nature of this Void, Consciousness or Nothingness? Can this Void be known through contemplation? Meditation? How? How can I contemplate that which I have never experienced? I assume that I have not experienced nothingness or I am experiencing it right now? If so, how can I get this epiphany of my true nature? 

There is no instruction manual with steps to take. There are many variables involved. I could tell you what works for me, yet I’ve discovered this through many years of practice and self experimentation. I don’t know if what works for me would work for you. I would suggest engaging in various practices and start paying attention. Let go of “what’s supposed to happen?”, “is this it?”, “what does xyz guru say about it?” type of mind activity. Engage in a practice and learn how to observe deeply. In particular, observe what resonates with you. You could explore practices like lucid dreaming, yoga, group meditation retreats, solo retreats, sensory deprivation tanks, psychedelics, self inquiry and on and on. Yet none will be effective if the mind is attached/identified. Insights arise when there is openness and space in the mind. 

We could create two forms of “knowing”. There is a “knowing” that assumes an external stable reality. For example, how do I know a foreign language? Well, I could study it, practice and learn it. Yet we could also create a different type of knowing. For example, how do you know that Now is Now? Do you wake up each morning wondering if Now is Now? Do you need to consult a physicist to provide you evidence that it is Now? Do you need to read theories to show you Now? Would engaging in thought stories reveal Now to you? Do you need a guru to verify to you that Now is Now? Of course not, because the knowing of Now comes *prior* to evidence and theory. This knowing is an implicit. One could try to describe it explicitly in linguistic thought constructs, yet this is not the ineffable actuality of Now. 

[DLH]

19 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

How can I have an experience or know the nature of this Void, Consciousness or Nothingness?

From my own limited POV, the Void, or Nothingness is just a neutral, non-existent mental psychological concept, which allowed God Consciousness to give birth to its “self”.  Think of the Void as a blank canvas used by painters, it is a blank infinite space, with No conscious thoughts, ideas, imagination, beliefs, textures, and sensations, and so on.  Out of this Void, or nothingness, a thought manifested and gave birth to consciousness.  From this one thought, an orgasmic explosion of thoughts occurred creating an infinite psychological gestalt of thoughts, ideas, imagination etc., that we call God Consciousness.  This explosion and expansion of consciousness continues into infinity with the innocents of a child wanting to explore its beingness, using imagination, creativity, compassion and Love.

From this limited POV, we/I will never fully grasp the full magnitude of the Void or Nothingness, and I don’t believe it is really necessary from our POV to understand it beyond a blank canvas that God Consciousness creates its infinite master pieces on. 

Consciousness and awareness, on the other hand, is a worthwhile endeavor to explore!  IMHO   

Edited April 11, 2020 by DLH

[Leo Gura]

Whatever there is, you imagine it.