Becks

Quantum mechanics explaining a possible worldwide phenomenon?

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@Dragallur understood.  Well basically it means if something can't be measured with 100% certainty than it has no meaning - or in other words it doesn't exist.  

So that's what the founders of Quantum Mechanics understood.  Niels Bohr to name one.  It was extremely radical.  In fact Einstein had many famous debates back and forth with Bohr but in the end he couldn't get past the math.  He wanted desperately to be able to pinpoint the exact location and velocity of a particle with absolute certainty but it is just not to be.

Most physicists today understand this but they really just go about doing their work without consciously thinking about the ramifications...which is unfortunate.

In regards to the Math - i was in no way undermining the mathematics behind Quantum Mechanics.  It is sound.  That is the point.  I was simply stating that there was no particular reason for me to study the mathematical proofs.   


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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Posted (edited)

@Serotoninluv You’re being self righteous by calling me self righteous.

If that is indeed what you’re doing - the probability is likely extremely high, coordinates however could swing out disproportionately to knock out a satellite or two to bring about a different possibility or rather, sum of universal quantum feces to contemplate.

In the end, relative to x, whether x be utility with respect to delusion or utility with respect to a human organisms potential, there will exist better beliefs than others.

To speak honestly on that because I value the seeing of exacting appearances over mirages, yes I think am a bit self righteous, it’s likely a defence mechanism, one which I think has some value which will evolve overtime like any other reactionary mechanism within me. The difference here being I’m certainly not the one in denial about it.

Personally though I don’t see it as TOO self righteous if someone values using a parachute to survive the free fall after jumping out of an aeroplane over their belief in being able to manipulate quantum time in order to survive the fall. I also think the person who values the parachute is doing the other “quantum mathematical being” a favour by yanking their chain here so they land more safely. Not only does he pretend to know (he possesses superficial knowledge that has deluded him to believe that he has any kind of authority on the subject), he pretends to know more than others while at the same time surreptitiously sidestepping ways to answer direct questions and derailing directions. He's a bullshitter and that bullshitter is someone you're happy to defend.

There’s more ways to look at a situation than to give it the narrow definition of being self righteous, that only adds sauce to the quantum bullshit salad.

Parachute anyone? Yes please pass the sauce, I’ll grab the pepper as well if you don’t mind, “oh and let’s try and miss the trees on the way down too of course. Hey where can I get a barbecue round here in free fall for this bacon I got here in my hand that I’d like to fry and eat!”

@Becks I wasn’t referring to you, please speculate away that’s all cool and it can help in the learning process. I’m just sick and tired of the pretenders, it harms other people. You’re not pretending to be an expert, you just come across as a sincere learner, so am I and it’s the only reason I’m here, not to be some “guru” as others here pretend to be rather than just acting like real authentic human beings.

Why would you invite a pretender to your birthday if they were only ever pretending to be your friend? If ONLY I had quantum powers to flush them down that quantum tunnel they profess to know so much about. The water bill would be enormous with all the bullshit they need to flush down in order to hide and repress in their subconscious! 

 

Edited by possibilities

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well basically it means if something can't be measured with 100% certainty than it has no meaning - or in other words it doesn't exist.

Ok, well I have to say I highly doubt this, I will give you an example: I will take a dice and throw it.. before it falls down, noone knows what side it will land on but you can pretty easily say that there is 1/6 probability for any side, does the fact that you do not know what side it will land make the calculation or the probability meaningless or make it no exist as you say? No, and this is such a simple example that I don't think that logical  positivists thought like that. If I cite Wikipedia:

Quote

that only statements verifiable through direct observation or logical proof are meaningful

Which is very different from what you wrote about logical positivism. So for logical positivist, the information that any of the six sides has the same probability is still meaningful even though logical positivist does not know which one it will be with 100% certainty.

What are the ramifications of quantum mechanics then that the physicists miss?

Edited by Dragallur
last sentence

When it rains, it pours like hell.
-Insomnium

My blog: dragallur.wordpress.com

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@Dragallur Rolling dice isn't a good analogy because we are talking about pinpointing the position and velocity of matter here...and they can't.  But the ramifications mean that classical physics and materialism are out the window.  The clock work universe is out the window because matter is not in certain positions.   It basically debunks materialism.  

 


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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@Inliytened1 The analogy still holds you are talking about pinpointing position and velocity of matter I am talking about pinpointing which side the dice will land on and both is impossible.

I am still wondering why you asked me about Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
The reason for you to study the math would be to understand it deeply and from "first hand experience".

I don't understand how it debunks materialism, the fact that the desk I am sitting in front of is just a collection of quantum stuff does not change the fact that it is solid thing which is for practical purposes operating just as well under normal mechanics.


When it rains, it pours like hell.
-Insomnium

My blog: dragallur.wordpress.com

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@Dragallur  that's where i bring you back to spirituality...some of these founding fathers may have gone on to become mystics ..if you meditate and do the practices you can actually discover directly that reality is fundamentally mystical.  All logic is contained within.  But again, don't believe me - don't take it as dogma or belief - rather if you can be open minded, do the practices and see what you discover for yourself.

It might surprise you.

Either way it's fine - i am not preaching or pushing anything on you.  I'm merely putting it out there.


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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9 minutes ago, Dragallur said:

@Inliytened1 The analogy still holds you are talking about pinpointing position and velocity of matter I am talking about pinpointing which side the dice will land on and both is impossible.

I am still wondering why you asked me about Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
The reason for you to study the math would be to understand it deeply and from "first hand experience".

 

Good point.  If i did not awaken perhaps i would.  You are right in that you should not take other's words for Truth.


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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Posted (edited)

@Inliytened1 But what does quantum physics has to do with reality being mystical? Also those are two completely different things -- you realizing that reality is mystical, whatever that means, and quantum mechanics being explanation for some things but still being wrong about other, like gravity.

Also my other questions which had gone without remark.

Edited by Dragallur

When it rains, it pours like hell.
-Insomnium

My blog: dragallur.wordpress.com

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29 minutes ago, Dragallur said:

@Inliytened1 The analogy still holds you are talking about pinpointing position and velocity of matter I am talking about pinpointing which side the dice will land on .

Well in a sense look at it this way...it is probabilities.  With the dice there is a finite probability 1 in 6.  But with the Quantum experiments it is infinite probability.  Thus there is this field of infinite probability - in reality it's not even a field - its formless or pure potential.


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, Dragallur said:

@Inliytened1 What does infinite probability mean?

Unlimited.  Meaning it could collapse into any possibility.

Edited by Inliytened1

We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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@Inliytened1 Well that is just not true. According to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle you do have some uncertainty but that does not mean that you can get any possibility or any velocity or any position.


When it rains, it pours like hell.
-Insomnium

My blog: dragallur.wordpress.com

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Posted (edited)

These aren't Inliytened1's opinions @Dragallur, he's not going to backup anything he's said. He's read some nonsense, decided that feels good and now proselytizes. He's no different to your average football fan. He doesn't even understand what unlimited means, no one really does, its a nonsense term unless you can comprehend unlimited. You're talking to a wall. Keep experimenting with him if you want sure, but you'll find no matter how reasonable he appears in one moment, he'll go back to pretending he's an authority again and start preaching his nonsense. Its not about closed mindedness, its about the capacity to respect a persons opinions, of which I have none here because he's demonstrated very little ability to even contemplate anything let alone have meaningful answers on the subject of quantum mechanics, even if there is any credence to what he's stated so far, that credence is falsely earned and deep down he'd know that.

Edited by possibilities

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@Dragallur PM to discuss further.


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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@Inliytened1 I am sorry, I would like to discuss this further more but I do not see why over personal messages, maybe you can try to explain why and then I will consider it, I would actually like other people to also benefit from this discussion which will be only possible if it is public.

@possibilities I will see where this goes :)


When it rains, it pours like hell.
-Insomnium

My blog: dragallur.wordpress.com

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Posted (edited)

Here's a quick simple diagram I created that may be useful to others. In order to arrive at any better understanding of truth, it isn't to study "what is true?", at least that's what I've found, rather its to study falsity and in doing so, how to avoid it. Affirmatives might feel better but they're less courageous and have a much steeper learning curve even if going the other way can feel a bit paintful. This isn't at the negation of creativity, imagination is extremely important during my own ideational process, but when examining the actual truth of an idea, such as this diagram, for me its gotta be put through its paces if any imagination is going to be adopted as some kind of belief, be it primary to tertiary. Feel free to expand on of course, I'm by no means a pre-programmed robot only open to and capable of generating one possibility.

So these are the three areas of falsity I've so far hypothesised need to be examined in order to incrementally improve our perception of things, questioning techniques, thought experiments and so on are tools that could be used to uncover potential illusions, delusions and sophistry at work. With respect to the latter (sophistry), our own minds can easily convince ourselves of things that are actually untrue, which leads to an illusion and if that perpetuates it leads to a delusional belief that we have to break open by challenging original assumptions.

 

screenshot 2.png

Edited by possibilities

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@possibilities  this has given me more to contemplate! Thank you

7 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Here's a quick simple diagram I created that may be useful to others. In order to arrive at any better understanding of truth, it isn't to study "what is true?", at least that's what I've found, rather its to study falsity and in doing so, how to avoid it. Affirmatives might feel better but they're less courageous and have a much steeper learning curve even if going the other way can feel a bit paintful. This isn't at the negation of creativity, imagination is extremely important during my own ideational process, but when examining the actual truth of an idea, such as this diagram, for me its gotta be put through its paces if any imagination is going to be adopted as some kind of belief, be it primary to tertiary. Feel free to expand on of course, I'm by no means a pre-programmed robot only open to and capable of generating one possibility.

So these are the three areas of falsity I've so far hypothesised need to be examined in order to incrementally improve our perception of things, questioning techniques, thought experiments and so on are tools that could be used to uncover potential illusions, delusions and sophistry at work. With respect to the latter (sophistry), our own minds can easily convince ourselves of things that are untrue, which leads to an illusion and if that perpetuates it leads to a delusional belief that we have to break open by challenging original assumptions.

 

screenshot 2.png

 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah no problem @Becks, you could even say illusion is what comes first, it really depends on the perspective ones taking on the thing they're looking at for example, you could say:

(1) Illusion - we have the illusion that our thoughts represent ourselves that we must act on.

(2) Sophistry - it does this through various kinds of reasoning to convince us in the form of trickery, "I feel this about this because of this random thought that is now appearing and therefore it must be true!" even though it could have been one of billions of others many of which would have been better reasoning. So its a rationalisation process. Awareness therein however would be seeing through the deception which alleviates the illusion.

(3) Delusion - Step one and two repeat themselves continuously within a consciousness and in the context of the environmental inputs of that consciousness it becomes convinced that the information its gleaned from its environment in the way its gleaned them in the context of self representations represents their "personal identity", from spiritual stuff to football teams to quantum gibberish to being a guru to potentially literally anything that we associate as not only ourselves but anything about reality.

Edited by possibilities

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