mandyjw

The Giving Tree

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@tsuki Woooow. I'm not sure if I should make myself finish 1000 first or read Meditations on the Tarot.


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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8 hours ago, tsuki said:

From Meditations on the Tarot

Yes, good find! This is one that is going to require me to reread it A few times.

Ive never read Meditations on the Tarot front to back. I've just skipped around in it through the years.

Gurdjieff and Tomberg knew one another. In doing a Google search. I ran across an interesting article that concerns Gurdjieff, Tomberg,  and Ouspenky in relation to Esoteric Christianity. It's a medium length article so I'll just put the link below the first two paragraphs. So allow me to introduce the guy who has the web page who immediately introduces someone else's article,,,,

 

Tomberg criticizes Gurdjieff’s aims in Meditations on the Tarot as being without grace, and aimed at building a resurrection body apart from Initiation-from-above, although he freely admits the possibility of doing such, tacitly. In Ouspensky’s The Fourth Way, we are given a more detailed, in depth treatment of Gurdjieff’s views, which Ouspensky turned into a “system” (as he called it). Ouspensky makes especial reference to “esoteric Christianity”, which Gurdjieff once famously called his system, “if you like” or “if you prefer”. Here is a relevant article by/on Gurdjieff over giving up unconscious suffering, in reference to Biblical teaching. More of his ideas in relation to Christianity are found here.

Ouspensky is more direct than Gurdjieff; in answer to questions about a “personal God” (rather than the Absolute of the “System”, which operates by increasingly less mechanical Laws the higher one is), he admits that the System may allow for the grace and personalism of God, since, in the Ray of Creation, the last two notes of Si and Do we have no actual spiritual experience of, but rather experience merely the mechanical operations of earlier notes, which mechanically create the bio-film on Earth and “feed the Moon”. This is a rather startling admission: I am not quite certain what to make of it. Although it sounds like “God of the Gaps”, I suppose it also reminds me of  Godel’s incompleteness theorem. 

https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=6514

 

 


"To have a free mind is to be a universal heretic." - A.H. Almaas

"We have to bless the living crap out of everyone." - Matt Kahn

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  Quote

The consequence of choosing between these two — I will not say "points of view",
but rather "attitudes of soul"—lies above all in the intrinsic nature of the experience
of practical mysticism which consequently derives from this choice. He who chooses
being will aspire to true being and he who chooses love will aspire to love. For
one only finds that for which one seeks. The seeker for true being will arrive at
the experience of repose in being, and. as there cannot be two true beings ("the
illegitimate twofoldness" of Saint-Martin) or two separate co-eternal substances
but only one being and one substance, the centre of "false being" will be suppressed
("false being" = ahamkara, or the illusion of the separate existence of
a separate substance of the "self). The characteristic of this mystical way is that
one loses the capacity to cry. An advanced pupil of yoga or Vedanta will for ever
have dry eyes, whilst the masters of the Cabbala, according to the Zobar, cry much
and often. Christian mysticism speaks also of the "gift of tears"— as a precious gift
of divine grace. The Master cried in front of the tomb of Lazarus. Thus the outer
characteristic of those who choose the other mystical way, that of the God of love,
is that they have the "gift of tears". This is in keeping with the very essence of
their mystical experience. Their union with the Divine is not the absorption of
their being by Divine Being, but rather the experience of the breath of Divine
Love, the illumination by Divine Love, and the warmth of Divine Love. The soul
which receives this undergoes such a miraculous experience that it cries. In this
mystical experience fire meets with FIRE, Then nothing is extinguished in the
human personality but, on the contrary, everything is set ablaze. This is the experience
of "legitimate twofoldness" or the union of two separate substances in
one sole essence. The substances remain separate as long as they are bereft of that
which is the most precious in all existence: free alliance in love.

 

I meant to bring it forward with the above reply,,,,,


"To have a free mind is to be a universal heretic." - A.H. Almaas

"We have to bless the living crap out of everyone." - Matt Kahn

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8 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@tsuki Woooow. I'm not sure if I should make myself finish 1000 first or read Meditations on the Tarot.

Both books are superb.
It seems like 1000 is challenging to you emotionally, while I find Meditations to be difficult intellectually.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Yes, good find! This is one that is going to require me to reread it A few times.

Ive never read Meditations on the Tarot front to back. I've just skipped around in it through the years.

The article went over my head, I'm preoccupied with Meditations for now.
I find it charming that Tomberg seems to argue in favor of Christian yoga over Advaitan non-duality.
I need to re-read the second chapter (The High Priestess) because his arguments seem to me like petty squabble and I can't accept that.

Edited by tsuki

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32 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Both books are superb.
It seems like 1000 is challenging to you emotionally, while I find Meditations to be difficult intellectually.

My concern is that 1000 is from one perspective complete and utter bullshit and a lot of ideas that all need to be let go of. Sometimes I wonder if it's better to learn things so you can let go of them or if one should avoid having them to begin with. 


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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8 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Sometimes I wonder if it's better to learn things so you can let go of them or if one should avoid having them to begin with. 

Hmm, can you avoid learning things?
No reason can be attributed to unity that can explain its fall to multiplicity.

10 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

My concern is that 1000 is from one perspective complete and utter bullshit and a lot of ideas that all need to be let go of.

And what perspective is that, exactly?

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@tsuki An incomplete perspective, admittedly. What's my LOC? None of the descriptions fit. 


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

An incomplete perspective, admittedly. What's my LOC? None of the descriptions fit. 

Alrighty, what are you? Are you? Are you not?
What is the world? Is there a world? Is the world not there (or here)?
What is knowledge?
What is God?

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Those are hard to answer because it's difficult to separate my concepts from the experience. My experience is ever changing for all those questions and so are my concepts about them when I think of them. 

I am consciousness, I both am and am not simultaneously. The world is a perception, the world both is and is not simultaneously. I feel as if there is a here and a there but I never get "there" and I also know that in some way I create there as I perceive there. 

Knowledge is thought, a one dimensional language, the only real purpose of which is to communicate. Communication with one's self or other makes no difference and one's self and other is an illusion. The other definition of Knowledge is a thoughtless state and complete understanding of oneness.

God is the oneness of everything that both is and is not and when we are cut off from God as a separate self he appears as a higher power. When we are not cut off from God we know ourselves to be God. 

 


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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Posted (edited)

You are abiding in the 800s, in the state of not-knowing.
It is not a not-knowing of ignorance, of false humility. It is a not-knowing of directionlessness, of validity of both ends. It is a union through paradox.
The path starts in 590s with a negation of the self, but ends in a final, groundless, affirmation. A positive answer at 1000.
There is no need to shy away from choosing either end of the paradox, because even this total paradox is surrendered.

Your attainment is genuine and remarkable precisely because it doesn't make you feel proud.
A paradox is a sign of incompleteness, of overlooked assumptions. The book may help you find them.

If you find the author's experience confusing - skip it.
The content of mystical experiences is individual and expressing them (like the author did) is what is used to self-reflect.
It is a mirror that helps you see your self that is overlooked. Good luck @mandyjw.

Edited by tsuki

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How can I be that advanced spiritually and still be so self-centered? 


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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And what's your LOC? 


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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14 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

How can I be that advanced spiritually and still be so self-centered? 

Because in your experience good has an opposite (selflessness vs self-centeredness).
You need to go all the way in and surrender your humility.

12 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

And what's your LOC? 

The book is very vague towards the end. It would probably put me in the 900-1000 range.
The grand finale is the stateless state and I resonate with that a lot. There was no path to begin with.

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I don't let myself express the opposite feelings of self importance but I definitely have them. I don't want you and others to see them, I'd rather appear humble. I am neither. It's a pendulum swinging from one side to the other. I feel like my task now is trying to stop the pendulum from swinging, and it's like during my awakening someone took it and swing it as hard as they could and it's finally starting to slow down to where it can be worked with again. You saw in my first journal plenty of my self-aggrandizing tendencies, don't you remember? xD


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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Posted (edited)

After the initial awakening of 560s the work is about purification from the position of no-self.
In order to purify, you need to bring it out and scrutinize it. The self-centeredness is not attributable to the awakened one when the realization of the no-self is genuine. It's a form of accumulated psychological and physiological trauma that needs to be released. That is what was happening in your journals. You needed an ear that would listen and the amount of synchronicities confirm just how much.

It is not possible to go any further by 'accepting' the self-centeredness.
Self-centeredness is the root of suffering and you need to be willing to stop.
The only way forward is by letting go of things you hold dear and fight for. That includes both things you fight for your own benefit, as well as things you do for the world. There is a small self and the big self and they both need to go.

That is the only thing that makes the pendulum stop.

Edited by tsuki

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Posted (edited)

So I created all those synchronicities to draw you in, in a way? The whole thing was self deception, like all of creation? I sometimes really desire to go back to those mystical experiences. But it was all just deception, all just something to let go of. The insights seemed so earth shattering but in hindsight they weren't. Why is Leo continuing to take psychedelics? Would psychedelics continue to help moving along the "path" from here? Or are they a clinging to the mystical experiences, deceiving oneself that they are going deeper and deeper when really they aren't. Or are both possibilities simultaneously true? 

The thing about my own life that I feel now is a real sense of purposelessness. I guess I'm OK with it, sometimes. I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I've let go of my future visions, or as much as I'm able. It just feels kinda blah. If I had psychedelics and the freedom to do them I would to move beyond this. But isn't THIS the point. The path. The THIS? 

Edited by mandyjw

Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

So I created all those synchronicities to draw you in, in a way? The whole thing was self deception, like all of creation? I sometimes really desire to go back to those mystical experiences. But it was all just deception, all just something to let go of. The insights seemed so earth shattering but in hindsight they weren't.

Synchronicities are moments that reveal the true, empty, nature of the mind. It is when the small self and the big self connect, when your thoughts become indistinguishable from events of the real world. Did you attract me by creating them? This question arises because of inconsistency.
Mystical experiences show the point of view of the big self and there is no difference between us, physically. It's like looking at two hands clapping from the point of view of the mind and asking whether one attracted the other. 

Was it just a deception? JUST?! The Ego may create the inner world through lies, but so does God create the external.
In fact, the Ego is identical with God and that is the lesson of the Law of Attraction. LOA is Ego/God praying to itself!

The insights were world-shattering because they did, in fact, shatter your world. They were the sounds of a dying mind, the sounds of silence.

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Why is Leo continuing to take psychedelics? Would psychedelics continue to help moving along the "path" from here? Or are they a clinging to the mystical experiences, deceiving oneself that they are going deeper and deeper when really they aren't. Or are both possibilities simultaneously true? 

The path is not about depth.
When you press the mind hard enough, it will give you everything, including occult powers, clairvoyance, omniscience and so forth. They will not bring lasting peace regardless of the fireworks. It does not matter whether you do this for your own benefit, or for the benefit of others. I/other is the root fixation of the mind, the fulcrum point that lets it spin the meaning and run the show. Release the 'I' through purification (shadow work, meditation, contemplation, self-inquiry, etc) and the mind will cease. There will be thoughts and maybe even occult powers, but there will be no thinker and no mind.

Psychedelics have healing powers. My one LSD trip was an intense, 12-hours release of trauma.

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

The thing about my own life that I feel now is a real sense of purposelessness. I guess I'm OK with it, sometimes. I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I've let go of my future visions, or as much as I'm able. It just feels kinda blah. If I had psychedelics and the freedom to do them I would to move beyond this. But isn't THIS the point. The path. The THIS? 

Ramana Maharshi taught that realization is accomplished through Grace. This is confirmed by my path.
My guru was reality itself, I contemplated it until I became nothing - out of pure curiosity and desire for truth.
A guru is something, or someone, that you find magnetic, but instead of being pulled towards it - you are being pulled towards yourself, your own being. Devotion is a very powerful tool of releasing individuality, but I don't think we Westerners are open enough to accept that kind of madness.

Yogis devised deities such as Shiva, Kali, etc as object of worship so that people could surrender without guidance of another human (guru). Grace is when you humble yourself down to nothingness and God becomes everything. Then, your deity may let you see yourself as it.

You are a Christian. Go meet God in person.

Edited by tsuki

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@tsuki Thank you, that explains a lot. I sometimes wish that you could be fully appreciated for what you are, but I guess maybe that would ruin it. 

"Once upon a time people who knew the Way were subtle, spiritual, mysterious, penetrating, unfathomable. Since they’re inexplicable I can only say what they seemed like: Cautious, oh yes, as if wading through a winter river. Alert, as if afraid of the neighbors. Polite and quiet, like houseguests. Elusive, like melting ice. Blank, like uncut wood. Empty, like valleys. Mysterious, oh yes, they were like troubled water." 

"True leaders are hardly known to their followers. Next after them are the leaders the people know and admire; after them, those they fear; after them, those they despise. To give no trust is to get no trust."

 


Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

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