Can one become a therapist without a degree?

[kieranperez]

For example:

• Hypnotherapy
• Psychoanalyis
• Psychedelpy (gonna make that my own so I’m going to just go with it lol)
• Jungian psychology

I know you can gain things like life coaching certificates but can you develop a therapy practice without actually having a degree in college? 

My overall long term goal is to become a mystic/sage and want to Ashram in the coming decades but I really need to learn how to heal people too and develop practice and momentum doing that.

I know that this was possible in prior decades like in the 70s but I imagine that there’s probably tighter legal stuff than there was back then. 

[winterknight]

It's illegal in the US to practice psychotherapy without a license, nor would it be a good idea for you or your patients. That includes psychoanalysis and Jungian psychology. If you want to do that for a living, you would be missing out hugely by not being properly educated.

If you want to practice life coaching or spiritual counseling practice, however, there are no licensure requirements.

[kieranperez]

@winterknight I was asking about a college degree. I’m asking if one can still be certified and licensed without going to college. Like, can one be licensed in hypnotherapy, psychoanalysis, etc. like can be licensed in life coaching?

[winterknight]

7 hours ago, kieranperez said:

@winterknight I was asking about a college degree. I’m asking if one can still be certified and licensed without going to college. Like, can one be licensed in hypnotherapy, psychoanalysis, etc. like can be licensed in life coaching?

Definitely not, unfortunately.

[kieranperez]

3 hours ago, winterknight said:

Definitely not, unfortunately.

Because I know this was possible back in say the 70s but I guess there are tighter restrictions now? I mean, how does someone like for instance Tony Robbins do what he does then? He incorporates a lot from different schools of psychology and psychotherapeutic practices and schools both in his events and people individually and has for decades. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by kieranperez

[winterknight]

36 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Because I know this was possible back in say the 70s but I guess there are tighter restrictions now? I mean, how does someone like for instance Tony Robbins do what he does then? He incorporates a lot from different schools of psychology and psychotherapeutic practices and schools both in his events and people individually and has for decades. 

Tony Robbins is a life coach and definitely does not hold himself out as a therapist. Life coaches can add all sorts of random stuff to their mix.

But most will never have the depth of understanding that a properly trained therapist will.

I would definitely not recommend this way of going... why look for shortcuts? You're only cheating yourself.

There's a metric ton of bullshit in the life coaching and self-help fields.

If you really want to go into the depth of people's psyches, you must invest many years of time, effort, and yes -- formal education.

Edited December 19, 2018 by winterknight

[kieranperez]

@winterknight my life purpose in the coming decades is going to need to include healing. I completely disagree that this needs to be a therapist specific thing. Most spiritual teachers in fact need an understanding of psychotherapy to even make their teachings for the people that work with and under them more effective. Hell, you know this. You know how beneficial something like psychoanalaysis is this day in age in conjunction with spiritual work in order to really help people because a lot of people can’t even do serious hardcore spiritual because of psychological baggage and trauma. 

This is more of a systemic issue that needs to be addressed. This makes spiritual work too isolated. This is the problem with having all these separate specialists and fields in the modern stage Orange world. It doesn’t allow for a cohesive all encompassing systemic practice. Instead we have to jump around and through a bunch of hoops and make a million niches. Which creates all the expensive and tedious need to see so many different doctors, service providers, etc.

I’m not trying to “cut corners.” 

[winterknight]

27 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

@winterknight my life purpose in the coming decades is going to need to include healing. I completely disagree that this needs to be a therapist specific thing. Most spiritual teachers in fact need an understanding of psychotherapy to even make their teachings for the people that work with and under them more effective. Hell, you know this. You know how beneficial something like psychoanalaysis is this day in age in conjunction with spiritual work in order to really help people because a lot of people can’t even do serious hardcore spiritual because of psychological baggage and trauma. 

This is more of a systemic issue that needs to be addressed. This makes spiritual work too isolated. This is the problem with having all these separate specialists and fields in the modern stage Orange world. It doesn’t allow for a cohesive all encompassing systemic practice. Instead we have to jump around and through a bunch of hoops and make a million niches. Which creates all the expensive and tedious need to see so many different doctors, service providers, etc.

I’m not trying to “cut corners.” 

But I recommend psychoanalysis precisely because the training is so rigorous and demanding, and analysts have to spend years and years understanding themselves and others under the supervision of senior psychoanalysts. I've got a graduate degree in psychology, but am still far from that level of training.

There are different kinds of healing. You can be an expert in one kind of healing while admitting that you are not an expert in the others. You can heal from the spiritual standpoint, while admitting you don't understand the psychological standpoint.

There is no doing away with niches. Things are too complicated. Would you expect a spiritual teacher to also treat cancer?

If you want to understand the psyche better to inform your work as a spiritual teacher, great, but that's not really the same as being a therapist. You still have to refer out for that kind of work.

And if you want to be a therapist who also understands spirituality, fantastic, but undergo the training for that. That means at least a college degree and likely a graduate degree after that too.

Edited December 19, 2018 by winterknight

[peanutspathtotruth]

@kieranperez Hey man I'm in the same boat. Unfortunately, for the most part @winterknightis right. I started my Psychology studies this year and I'm already doubting if I really wanna go this path towards therapy. It would take at least 7-8 more years and a lot of money which I don't have. 

So one thing I know, which will probably be my way to go, is to become a healer. You can get a license as a "healer for psychotherapy" or just a "healer" (which is more medically based), the training costs around 2.000-4.000 €. You are allowed to do anything a therapist can except prescribing medicine and referring patients to hospitals. Training takes 3 years. You don't need the training to take the test. But you will need it. This is the situation in Germany and as far as I know Switzerland.

What I do think is, not everyone should be a therapist. Also, I want to take time to learn psychological and holistic healing. I'm 23 now and don't see myself practicing this before 30. I want to undergo a classical hospital training (like a nurse or something), while saving up money for the healer training. This gives me time to heal myself and dive into all the theory I want to incorporate. You can add anything, holotropic breathing, meditation, yoga etc. After having the license you can also get extra certificates. The training in the hospital will introduce me to working with patients already and seeing how can one contribute to healing just with your presence and love. Also it will give me the opportunity to work there while building up the healer thing.

Just wanted to share my plan since it's quite fresh. I'm not sure if this healer thing is available and legal in America. 

[Toby]

2 minutes ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

You are allowed to do anything a therapist can except prescribing medicine and referring patients to hospitals.

I don't know if that is true. I never heard of an "Heilpraktiker" that does Psychoanalysis. Hypnotherapy or Bodywork or anything like that... sure.

[kieranperez]

@winterknight how do you explain then Zen Masters even in the USA who have learned and now employ shadow work with people? That right there is psychotherapy and a very necessary component for spiritual work that as we can imagine, these Zen Masters didn’t go to school for this. Integral Zen & Mondo Zen by Doshin Roshi and Juno Kelly Roshi and Genpo Roshi are perfect examples of this.

[winterknight]

47 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

@winterknight how do you explain then Zen Masters even in the USA who have learned and now employ shadow work with people? That right there is psychotherapy and a very necessary component for spiritual work that as we can imagine, these Zen Masters didn’t go to school for this. Integral Zen & Mondo Zen by Doshin Roshi and Juno Kelly Roshi and Genpo Roshi are perfect examples of this.

Just because they call it "shadow work" doesn't make it psychotherapy, let alone psychoanalysis, which is far more highly specialized than ordinary therapy. Analysis has very particular protocols and very richly developed ways of dealing with unconscious conflict.

There is overlap between the spiritual and the psychological, but what a meditation master and a master psychotherapist are doing is not the same thing. They are both valuable, but they are not the same.

 

[kieranperez]

@winterknight I’m not trying to stick with psychoanalysis specifically, I’m speaking more broadly in terms of psychological healing through a variety of different mediums. Whether this be through transpersonal psychology techniques, shadow work, reichiab therapy, etc. 

Are these different? If so, what is the distinction you’re making?

Edited December 20, 2018 by kieranperez

[winterknight]

22 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

@winterknight I’m not trying to stick with psychoanalysis specifically, I’m speaking more broadly in terms of psychological healing through a variety of different mediums. Whether this be through transpersonal psychology techniques, shadow work, reichiab therapy, etc. 

Are these different? If so, what is the distinction you’re making?

Well, they are all different, but the point is there's all kinds of garbage that masquerades under the broad label of "psychotherapy" and that has filtered into modern self-help and even spiritual circles, promoted by people who don't really know what they're doing, who mix all kinds of things up into some random soup.

It's like witch doctor medicine. Yeah, some of it might work sometimes. But you don't want a witch doctor treating your lymphoma. 

If you really want to heal people's psyches not just from a spiritual perspective but from a psychological one, I think you should consider getting in touch with the most sophisticated knowledge, and that is going to take a lot of formal education.

Or else just focus on a spiritual tradition and learn it deeply, and use whatever healing techniques come from that. But just don't call it psychotherapy.

Edited December 20, 2018 by winterknight

[kieranperez]

@winterknight all the stuff I’ve listed to you aren’t gimmicky witch doctor stuff. Reichian therapy, transpersonal psychology, shadow work, etc. are not some self help fads. You realize most therapy people go through doesn’t really get to the root issues? I’ve had (and I’m not using myself as some sole example) therapy from regular counseling, DBT/CBT therapy to CBT/DBT therapy “intensives” at UCSF, been prescribed at least 20 different psych meds, psychoanalysis, etc. for 10+ years and most of these therapists and what not just waste people’s time and money and don’t tend to get the root of anything not change much. If anything that’s changed it’s mostly just a better way of articulating and conceptualizing one’s problems. The psychotherapy and psychiatry systems are extremely broken and downright problematic systems, and in a lot of cases, downright criminal in A LOT of cases. So I don’t care much to defend this corrupt and dysfunctional system by saying people need more standard education on these matters as if that’s cuts it close at all. The whole legal system in it of itself is fucked up and does a huge disservice to patients with psychological issues from legitimate mental disorders to even more mild issues. Much less the lack of deep understanding by many (and as far as I’m concerned and have seen, most) of the practitioners.

I’m also not saying I promote some sort of system where anyone and everyone can just buy and go through some 1-4 week process of becoming therapist as though it’s that simple. However this is why I’m asking because “psychotherapy” is an extremely broad label. It can be something that confines to your profession where you practice just psychoanalysis, to someone like Elliot Hulse who at his seminars does a lot of Reichian therapy and other stuff along those lines, to people who facilitate holotropic breathwork (which is a legitimate and powerful psychotherapy practice right there and can be more effective than just sitting down with a therapist), to someone who does (unlicensed yet effective) nondual energetic therapy with substances 5-MeO-DMT like Martin Ball, etc. 

It doesn’t really seem like you have much of an answer as to where that line is drawn in terms of legality when it comes to practice and facilitation. 

[winterknight]

50 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

@winterknight all the stuff I’ve listed to you aren’t gimmicky witch doctor stuff. Reichian therapy, transpersonal psychology, shadow work, etc. are not some self help fads. You realize most therapy people go through doesn’t really get to the root issues? I’ve had (and I’m not using myself as some sole example) therapy from regular counseling, DBT/CBT therapy to CBT/DBT therapy “intensives” at UCSF, been prescribed at least 20 different psych meds, psychoanalysis, etc. for 10+ years and most of these therapists and what not just waste people’s time and money and don’t tend to get the root of anything not change much. If anything that’s changed it’s mostly just a better way of articulating and conceptualizing one’s problems. The psychotherapy and psychiatry systems are extremely broken and downright problematic systems, and in a lot of cases, downright criminal in A LOT of cases. So I don’t care much to defend this corrupt and dysfunctional system by saying people need more standard education on these matters as if that’s cuts it close at all. The whole legal system in it of itself is fucked up and does a huge disservice to patients with psychological issues from legitimate mental disorders to even more mild issues. Much less the lack of deep understanding by many (and as far as I’m concerned and have seen, most) of the practitioners.

You're mixing a whole lot of stuff here that is sort of illustrating my point. Reichian therapy is very much witch doctory stuff -- there is zero science supporting it, there was an FDA investigation that found it to be totally fraudulent in the 50s, and people who actually know the real thing are rightly extremely skeptical. Transpersonal psychology is a broad label that covers a whole bunch of stuff, some more legitimate than others. Shadow work is simply a term taken out of Jung that could apply to many things. Some of these things may be legit but have very much been co-opted into self-help, etc. in shallow ways.

And you're lumping psychoanalysis in a long list with DBT/CBT, which again suggests you don't actually know what psychoanalysis is. Have you actually gone to a real analyst, 3x+ a week for 3+ years? I don't think so, or you wouldn't be dumping them all into the same big bucket.

You're also wrong that most people don't benefit from these things. An enormous literature exists on the topic, and people are in fact helped by these therapies. It is literally one of the most studied topics in medicine, one of the most solid conclusions.

Now, that doesn't mean that some people aren't helped, and it certainly doesn't mean that all therapists are equally good. Clearly not. But the solution obviously isn't to reduce qualifications. The problem is that qualifications are too loose as they are.

Psychiatry and its validity is a different ball of wax entirely. Can't lump that in either.

See what's going on? See how much conceptual confusion there is? The solution is not to reduce qualifications for an incredibly complex topic.

Anyway, it sounds like you're very interested in New Age type therapies with extremely dubious research behind them. I'd advise you to get the real stuff instead.

Edited December 20, 2018 by winterknight

[kieranperez]

This whole notion that the field of psychology is some innocent honest ethical system is just downright wrong. I’m sorry. Maybe it’s because you’re only reading one half of the story, maybe it’s because you haven’t suffered from crippling issues that failed to be addressed or solved AT ALL by psychiatry and psychology whether it be from ADHD to almost committing suicide to knowing people personally or whatever, but this notion that the psychotherapeutic and psychiatric system has their shit handled is just not true. These systems often don’t help people because their understanding is limited and also because this system is extremely corrupt, particularly the FDA. Hell look at how they treat psychedelics. Did you read why Reich was looked up and had his books burned? Because he started publishing “orgone energy” (or prana) and because his practices were rather “unorthodox”. “Unorthodox” doesn’t mean anything if it actually helps people but if you have certain knowledge which your government system doesn’t want spread (like the case in the USA with psychedelics) then don’t be surprised if they bust down your doors and shut you down. If you think what I’m saying is that NO ONE gets help from psychotherapy in some way shape or form than you’re mistaking what I’m saying but this notion that the FDA is some trustworthy and honest noteworthy federal agency is just fucking false. The entire system of psychiatry alone is incredibly corrupt and it’s honesty shameful and disgusting. Maybe you haven’t had doctors keep pressing you on pills because you were fortunate not to be in that situation to understand. Yeah you can read “documented cases” till the cows come home but that doesn’t justify how ineffective and dysfunctional and how lacking psychotherapy and psychiatry is in things like stage yellow systems thinking which is extremely needed because millions of people get fucked over and sometimes even killed because of shallow low grade solutions, cover up of symptoms rather than attacking root causes, a corrupt and ineffective system, pushing pills that more often than not aren’t needed that can totally change a fuck up one’s biochemistry that become extremely addictive with horrendous side effects that rarely work long term (years/decades). 

[Pilgrim]

11 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

@kieranperez Hey man I'm in the same boat. Unfortunately, for the most part @winterknightis right. I started my Psychology studies this year and I'm already doubting if I really wanna go this path towards therapy. It would take at least 7-8 more years and a lot of money which I don't have. 

So one thing I know, which will probably be my way to go, is to become a healer. You can get a license as a "healer for psychotherapy" or just a "healer" (which is more medically based), the training costs around 2.000-4.000 €. You are allowed to do anything a therapist can except prescribing medicine and referring patients to hospitals. Training takes 3 years. You don't need the training to take the test. But you will need it. This is the situation in Germany and as far as I know Switzerland.

What I do think is, not everyone should be a therapist. Also, I want to take time to learn psychological and holistic healing. I'm 23 now and don't see myself practicing this before 30. I want to undergo a classical hospital training (like a nurse or something), while saving up money for the healer training. This gives me time to heal myself and dive into all the theory I want to incorporate. You can add anything, holotropic breathing, meditation, yoga etc. After having the license you can also get extra certificates. The training in the hospital will introduce me to working with patients already and seeing how can one contribute to healing just with your presence and love. Also it will give me the opportunity to work there while building up the healer thing.

Just wanted to share my plan since it's quite fresh. I'm not sure if this healer thing is available and legal in America.

In no way do I want to say anything against your plans, it sounds amazing. I just wanted to draw attention to you, that when you are studying in Germany and got into a psychology program at a university you should think very clearly about dropping it. The insurance system doesn't cover the healing path (Heilpraktiker) as far as I am concerned. So you will have a much easier time attracting clients when you can bill them over insurance. Just my two cents.  

[Toby]

2 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

In no way do I want to say anything against your plans, it sounds amazing. I just wanted to draw attention to you, that when you are studying in Germany and got into a psychology program at a university you should think very clearly about dropping it. The insurance system doesn't cover the healing path (Heilpraktiker) as far as I am concerned. So you will have a much easier time attracting clients when you can bill them over insurance. Just my two cents.  

Many people specifically seek out alternative treatments. Many pay it on their own because they don't want their insurance to know. Many have a insurance ("private Krankenkasse" / "Beihilfe") that pays most if not all of the sessions.

[peanutspathtotruth]

1 hour ago, Toby said:

Many people specifically seek out alternative treatments. Many pay it on their own because they don't want their insurance to know. Many have a insurance ("private Krankenkasse" / "Beihilfe") that pays most if not all of the sessions.

@Pilgrim Exactly, and in addition to this, getting the permission to take patients via their insurance is really hard and you have to have great luck for that. That is, after you spend so much time and money for the certificate. Still a good point though, but as far as I researched, so many people are going to healers etc. for the aforementioned reasons.

Thank you for the feedback my friend