Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Outer said:

But it is good that Emerald brings it up. It might be worthwhile to simply ask "do you think we have unconscious biases?"

I agree that is a much less threatening framework to an ego and could be more effective at times. Yet being generic like that removes degree.

Some unconscious biases cause more harm than others.

And I agree with you that there are many other important issues to be addressed. Mist of my attention these days is spent mental illnesses.

[DrewNows]

@Jack Riverwould you like to explain how the individual is the society? 

What would understanding the self do for society? 

[Jack River]

From the moment self reacts in relationship (resistance/attachment/identification) and then adheres to a self image, which implies the projection of that image onto others, then the violence/war begins. The actual battle is just a result of that violence. But the initial violence stems from the “me” “you” in relationship. Or the lack of actually. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

17 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Dude. That is not what I’m saying.

That is hilarious though.  Absolute???  I am speaking relatively/on a reality level here. 

 

My impression was you were speaking of One consciosness, not relative individual relative consciousness

[Jack River]

Anything thought thinks about and invents is a reality and therefore relative. 

What I am saying is the consciousness of mankind is its beliefs, biases, and etc. let’s learn about all that. That is us, that is common. And all that is expressed in “society”. 

Understanding all that, not intellectually/conceptually, but holistically ends all that of the conditioned consciousness. Then we have stepped out of that stream of disorder. That contributes to the whole of consciousness. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Jack River said:

 

What I am saying is the consciousness of mankind is its beliefs, biases, and etc. let’s learn about all that. That is us, that is common. And all that is expressed in “society”. 

Understanding all that, not intellectually/conceptually, but holistically ends all that of the conditioned consciousness. Then we have step out of that stream of disorder. That contributes to the whole of consciousness. 

I think that is great. How can we disseminate that awareness at a societal level?

As we sit here pontificating about consciousness, people that have not awakened to what you wrote are suffering and harming others due to that conditioning.

Let’s say I’ve stepped out of that conditioned delusion. Great for me!!! How does that help other people still suffering from that conditioned delusion?

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think that is great. How can we disseminate that aeareness at a societal level?

Start by coming together to discuss the nature of thought/self. Starting with understanding ourselves in relationship. Our tendencies to impose images on ourselves/others.

Observe our tendencies to seek security in our own bais, which is part of the structure of self/thought. Observe how every “movement of self” is to resist what is actual in experience, which is also an action influenced by knowledge/experience(thought). To basically see how thought is responsible for all problems discused here on the forum today. 

All social/psychological problems stem from thought running incoherently. Thought seeking psychological security first and foremost. Which implies violence. It is a resistance to relationship. Action born of isolation/fear. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Start by coming together to discuss the nature of thought/self. Starting with understanding ourselves in relationship. Our tendencies to impose images on ourselves/others.

Observe our tendencies to seek security in our own bais, which is part of the structure of self/thought. Observe how every “movement of self” is to resist what is actual in experience, which is also an action influenced by knowledge/experience(thought). To basically see how thought is responsible for all problems discused here on the forum today. 

All social/psychological problems stem from thought running incoherently. Thought seeking psychological security first and foremost. Which implies violence. It is a resistance to relationship. Action born of isolation/fear. 

Great stuff. This seems more like an individual level. This sounds hyper focused on content. Content is really important, yet so is implementation.

You’ve got the content. Now, how do we bring forth these “coming togethers” to help others awaken to delusional racism within the context you wrote above? And how do you present the content to minds that have resistance? How do you create a “coming together” environment for awakening?

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

How might we implement such “coming together” to discuss racism in the context you described above? 

What does the problem of racism arise from? Is it not thought? 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Great stuff. This seems more like an individual level. This sounds hyper focused on content. Content is really important, yet so is implementation.

How might we implement such “coming together” to discuss racism in the context you described above? 

How can those of us awakened to what you wrote bring forth these “coming togethers” to help others awaken to these realizations?

Whoosh!

[Jack River]

Discuss the root of all such social problems together, which is thought. 

Racism is a re reaction of thought that clings to what is familiar(its contents) its experiences, it’s knowledge, the past)(its sub culture). 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

We can’t separate the outward form the inward. That is why we are in this mess. 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Discuss the root of all such social problems together, which is thought. 

Racism is thought clinging to what is familiar(its contents) its experiences, it’s knowledge, the past)(its sub culture). 

From my POV, you have done a lot of personal exploration. Yet, I don’t get the sense you understand how challenging it is to teach others and promote societal change. It takes A LOT of work and A LOT of teaching skill development.

People who have racist tendencies will NOT want to attend these “coming togethers”. In fact, they will try to disrupt these “coming togethers” - at times with violence

This goes waaay beyond personal revelations. That’s only the beginning. 

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet, I don’t get the sense you understand how challenging it is to teach to others and promote societal change. It takes A LOT of work and A LOT of teaching skill development.

There is no teacher. We all discuss together. There is skill needed to communicate to a certain degree yes but this cannnot be taught persay. 

Seriosuly dude the promotion of “societal change” has failed again and again. It starts with me, you. There is no society

[Jack River]

Ever moment mankind feeds that stream of disorder with his or her reactions. Can I, you, stop feeding that stream? That is the question brah

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Jack River said:

There is no teacher. We all discuss together. There is skill needed to communicate to a certain degree yes but this cannnot be taught persay. 

Seriosuly dude the promotion of “societal change” has failed again and again. It starts with me, you. There is no society

There are teachers. There are men and women that have dedicated their lives to develop expertise that they teach to others. Do I learn from my students? Of course. Yet to say I’m not a teacher is nonsense.

Organizing and implementing your “coming togethers” would be very complex and challenging. People with racist tendencies will NOT want to attend. They will try to disrupt these “coming togethers”  - at times violently. And we would need to overcome an enormous amount of resistance to help them reach the type of awkenings you propose. It’s not so easy as “just come together, discuss thoughts and awaken to your delusions”

I don’t get the sense you have experience in this area or care to learn.

[Emerald]

@Serotoninluv You might realize this already and I might be preaching to the choir, but I think he's a little too sure of the rightness of his perspective to hear what you're saying.

In my opinion, with Outer, it's a little different. He has a lot of resistance relative to certain perspectives but he shows some promise in shifts that he's already made, and he doesn't really think he has it all figured out. There's really only some barriers there to realizations of certain liberating relative truths. So, definitely worth trying to get him to release some resistance, because there is a big part of him that's trying to become more conscious in general, even if there's lot of resistance present.

But it's a lot harder to convince someone who is in perspective that spiritually bypasses the issues, because they think they've already arrived at the perspective to end all perspectives. That's why spiritual bypassing is so dangerous. It doesn't just block one or two perspectives. It blocks all relative perspectives, under the guise of being in the most superior perspective. So, that person can stay stuck forever because they won't question their viewpoints or shift perspectives at all and without being able to shift into more appropriate perspectives for a given issue.

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Society is continually changing. 

Is it? Or is it going from one condition to another? Action born of another reaction. If you look very close you will see that the self isnthe society. 

Society may be changing very superficially, but those changes may be the result of thought and therefore static. Thought always looking to solve its problems according to its own accumulated bais, which brings about inherent limitation. 

Also such “change” may be derived from the incoherent idea as such a thing as society actually existing. This tends to take the ‘attention of myself’ and how I live my daily life in relationship. 

My point is if we take responsibility in our daily life that will be expressed in “society”. 

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

But it's a lot harder to convince someone who is in perspective that spiritually bypasses the issues,

Spiritual bypassing can also manifest itself by teaching, helping “society”. Don’t kid yourself. The self will play such wonderful games with itself heh. 

[Jack River]

It’s not hocus pocus dudes...it’s pretty simple this actually.