Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Start by coming together to discuss the nature of thought/self. Starting with understanding ourselves in relationship. Our tendencies to impose images on ourselves/others.

Observe our tendencies to seek security in our own bais, which is part of the structure of self/thought. Observe how every “movement of self” is to resist what is actual in experience, which is also an action influenced by knowledge/experience(thought). To basically see how thought is responsible for all problems discused here on the forum today. 

All social/psychological problems stem from thought running incoherently. Thought seeking psychological security first and foremost. Which implies violence. It is a resistance to relationship. Action born of isolation/fear. 

Great stuff. This seems more like an individual level. This sounds hyper focused on content. Content is really important, yet so is implementation.

You’ve got the content. Now, how do we bring forth these “coming togethers” to help others awaken to delusional racism within the context you wrote above? And how do you present the content to minds that have resistance? How do you create a “coming together” environment for awakening?

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

How might we implement such “coming together” to discuss racism in the context you described above? 

What does the problem of racism arise from? Is it not thought? 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Great stuff. This seems more like an individual level. This sounds hyper focused on content. Content is really important, yet so is implementation.

How might we implement such “coming together” to discuss racism in the context you described above? 

How can those of us awakened to what you wrote bring forth these “coming togethers” to help others awaken to these realizations?

Whoosh!

[Jack River]

Discuss the root of all such social problems together, which is thought. 

Racism is a re reaction of thought that clings to what is familiar(its contents) its experiences, it’s knowledge, the past)(its sub culture). 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

We can’t separate the outward form the inward. That is why we are in this mess. 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Discuss the root of all such social problems together, which is thought. 

Racism is thought clinging to what is familiar(its contents) its experiences, it’s knowledge, the past)(its sub culture). 

From my POV, you have done a lot of personal exploration. Yet, I don’t get the sense you understand how challenging it is to teach others and promote societal change. It takes A LOT of work and A LOT of teaching skill development.

People who have racist tendencies will NOT want to attend these “coming togethers”. In fact, they will try to disrupt these “coming togethers” - at times with violence

This goes waaay beyond personal revelations. That’s only the beginning. 

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet, I don’t get the sense you understand how challenging it is to teach to others and promote societal change. It takes A LOT of work and A LOT of teaching skill development.

There is no teacher. We all discuss together. There is skill needed to communicate to a certain degree yes but this cannnot be taught persay. 

Seriosuly dude the promotion of “societal change” has failed again and again. It starts with me, you. There is no society

[Jack River]

Ever moment mankind feeds that stream of disorder with his or her reactions. Can I, you, stop feeding that stream? That is the question brah

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Jack River said:

There is no teacher. We all discuss together. There is skill needed to communicate to a certain degree yes but this cannnot be taught persay. 

Seriosuly dude the promotion of “societal change” has failed again and again. It starts with me, you. There is no society

There are teachers. There are men and women that have dedicated their lives to develop expertise that they teach to others. Do I learn from my students? Of course. Yet to say I’m not a teacher is nonsense.

Organizing and implementing your “coming togethers” would be very complex and challenging. People with racist tendencies will NOT want to attend. They will try to disrupt these “coming togethers”  - at times violently. And we would need to overcome an enormous amount of resistance to help them reach the type of awkenings you propose. It’s not so easy as “just come together, discuss thoughts and awaken to your delusions”

I don’t get the sense you have experience in this area or care to learn.

[Emerald]

@Serotoninluv You might realize this already and I might be preaching to the choir, but I think he's a little too sure of the rightness of his perspective to hear what you're saying.

In my opinion, with Outer, it's a little different. He has a lot of resistance relative to certain perspectives but he shows some promise in shifts that he's already made, and he doesn't really think he has it all figured out. There's really only some barriers there to realizations of certain liberating relative truths. So, definitely worth trying to get him to release some resistance, because there is a big part of him that's trying to become more conscious in general, even if there's lot of resistance present.

But it's a lot harder to convince someone who is in perspective that spiritually bypasses the issues, because they think they've already arrived at the perspective to end all perspectives. That's why spiritual bypassing is so dangerous. It doesn't just block one or two perspectives. It blocks all relative perspectives, under the guise of being in the most superior perspective. So, that person can stay stuck forever because they won't question their viewpoints or shift perspectives at all and without being able to shift into more appropriate perspectives for a given issue.

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Society is continually changing. 

Is it? Or is it going from one condition to another? Action born of another reaction. If you look very close you will see that the self isnthe society. 

Society may be changing very superficially, but those changes may be the result of thought and therefore static. Thought always looking to solve its problems according to its own accumulated bais, which brings about inherent limitation. 

Also such “change” may be derived from the incoherent idea as such a thing as society actually existing. This tends to take the ‘attention of myself’ and how I live my daily life in relationship. 

My point is if we take responsibility in our daily life that will be expressed in “society”. 

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

But it's a lot harder to convince someone who is in perspective that spiritually bypasses the issues,

Spiritual bypassing can also manifest itself by teaching, helping “society”. Don’t kid yourself. The self will play such wonderful games with itself heh. 

[Jack River]

It’s not hocus pocus dudes...it’s pretty simple this actually.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Jack River said:

Spiritual bypassing can also manifest itself by teaching, helping “society”. Don’t kid yourself. The self will play such wonderful games with itself heh. 

Spiritual bypassing, by definition, is when a person always defaults to higher up spiritual truths to avoid the emotional and physical labor that goes into more worldly issues.

So, it presents itself as an enlightened detachment, but is really an avoidance technique that the ego employs to avoid aspects of reality that undermine its worldview, create feelings of cognitive dissonance, and require a shift out of the ego's comfort zone.

There is an insight about enlightenment that applies here. "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water."

The implications of this insight are far-reaching. It means that, even after discovering the truth of no-self and transcending the delusions of ego, there are still practical issues that have to be dealt with on the level of duality. And defaulting to higher up non-dual and spiritual truths, just aren't going to cut the wood. And the water isn't going to carry itself either.

The same is true for the relative issue of systemic racism. Understanding the delusions of self on the personal level, will do absolutely nothing to the issue of systemic racism in the world at large.

The system of racism won't chop itself, just because you're enlightened.

But let's flip this around if you really care about overcoming personal delusions as the solution to all things. Why do you believe that your perspective is THE correct perspective to the exclusion of other perspectives? What does it give to you?

[Jack River]

The point has been made, until self understanding there is no listening/learning/communication with others. 

[Emerald]

Just now, Jack River said:

The point has been made, until self understanding there is no listening/learning/communication with others. 

Exactly. This is why you won't respond in a real way to the things that I just wrote to you. You cannot listen to my perspective, because the ego is afraid that its worldview will be undermined. And that it won't be able to employ the proper mental gymnastics and rationalizations to maintain itself.

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, it presents itself as an enlightened detachment, but is really an avoidance technique that the ego employs to avoid aspects of reality that undermine its worldview, create feelings of cognitive dissonance, and require a shift out of the ego's comfort zone.

 

I feel ya. That is the self in Action. 

 

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But let's flip this around if you really care about overcoming personal delusions as the solution to all things. Why do you believe that your perspective is THE correct perspective to the exclusion of other perspectives? What does it give to

Is it my perspective that thought is the root of such issues? Or is it so? Thought excludes. That was my original point. Going back and forth with who’s opinion is better was an expression of that. 

Thats my main point. Understand the problem together. What is the root of racism, thought ofcourse. It’s not rocket science. The problem starts in me, you, us. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Exactly. This is why you won't respond in a real way to the things that I just wrote to you. You cannot listen to my perspective, because the ego is afraid that its worldview will be undermined. And that it won't be able to employ the proper mental gymnastics and rationalizations to maintain itself.

Your world view and my world view are are the problem. A problem of self clinging to thought.(its accumulated knowledge/experience). 

 

[Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Is it my perspective that thought is the root of such issues? Or is it so? Thought excludes. That was my original point. Going back and forth with who’s opinion is better was an expression of that. 

Thats my main point. Understand the problem together. What is the root of racism, thought ofcourse. It’s not rocket science. The problem starts in me, you, us. 

Thought is the medium of the roots of such issues. The actual root within the medium of thought is that certain frameworks of thought make us blind to particular perspectives, and insulate us from the awareness of certain facets of reality. So, these issue do occur in the dimension of thoughts and not in the dimensions of sight, sound, taste, touch, or smell. But it is not in creating a resistance to thought that we can transcend these issues individually and collectively. It is in being able to realize when our thoughts (in the form of beliefs and assumptions) are getting in the way of our awareness of things from various relative and absolute perspectives.

So, it is a matter of letting go of conscious and unconscious beliefs and assumptions on the level of thought that will allow ourselves to become conscious of our own blindspots relative to systemic racism and how it affects ourselves and others. When we let go of these thought-based illusions, we will notice what is actually there. We will notice the system of racism at play in the arena of practical experience.

So, you seem to be using the idea of resistance to thought in order to avoid addressing the issues in a real way. And this resistance to thought comes in the form of... thought. Without the thought that "thought is the root of the issue", you would be more able to see tangible actionable solutions to these issues.

You will not get rid of thoughts, in yourself and especially not in others. So, the solution is not to pretend like you are free of the delusions of your thought processes and to create more illusory thoughts that society should just stop having illusory thoughts. Objectively, these solutions aren't actionable.

A real solution is to have these discussions on the relative level and the appropriate paradigm and to address the thought-illusions and assumptions that insulate ourselves and others from this systemic issue. 

Saying that others should know the self is not a practical and actionable solution to this problem. It has very little efficacy in remedying issues on the level of world systems. Solving problems on the relative paradigm requires mostly noticing relative truths that were previously in the collective shadow.

[Forestluv]

@Emerald Thank you! Spiritual bypassing is a new concept to me - now that I see it, it looks totally obvious ?.

With spiritual bypassing, do you find it generally best not to engage?

As well, sometimes I can perceive someone as being overall closed-minded and not see that there are both blocks and open avenues to pursue.

All part of developing skills. . .