The True Self

[Dodo]

I am searching for my true self for few days now, and I stumbled on a question today, so let's ask it and see if anyone has an idea. 

Is my true self the same nothingness as your true self? Is the true self separate for each human or is it just 1 universal thing (no-thing)? Any thoughts?

[Eye]

Tricky question. As far as I know, true self is a true, core vibration of every individual, but at the same time You are the U (you) - niverse and the universe is you so it is indeed a separate concept but acts as a part of the whole (all that is/nothingness/god). 

[Henri]

In Hinduism one`s true Self is called Atman.

Atman is identical with the transcendent  Self which is called Brahman. The realization of this is liberation or enlightenment.

This is Vedanta, the essence of the Veda`s, the non-dualistic school of thinking.

So this means I am in you as you, you are in me as me... No separation, this is all due to Maya, the big illusion of the separated self.

Hence you understand the importance of service to humanity and your fellow man, in essence we are all one. By helping out, you are also helping your Self. That`s why I don`t agree with people who tell you to liberate yourself first before helping others. By the way only one out of millions gets liberated during lifetime. So don`t fall in that ego-trap. Get out your comfort zone to comfort others. After all we are one world family. 

[jjer94]

5 hours ago, Henri said:

That`s why I don`t agree with people who tell you to liberate yourself first before helping others. By the way only one out of millions gets liberated during lifetime. So don`t fall in that ego-trap. Get out your comfort zone to comfort others. After all we are one world family. 

As nice as that sounds Henri, I disagree.

By believing that you are One with everything, you're just as delusional as all the others out there. You still believe in a bunch of words, which are of the realm of duality. And the thing is, if you believe that we are all One, you are also likely to have a bunch of other hidden beliefs and agendas, and because you haven't transcended words yet, you likely won't be aware of those hidden beliefs and agendas.

A perfect example of a hidden agenda is to treat others with love and respect so that they can reflect back to you how amazing of a person you are. Yet you wouldn't realize that if you don't know what you are (and what you are not). Agendas are egoic. They tell you that this moment is insufficient and something needs to be done about it. Very subtle. Can you see?

Believing that you are One with everything means you should treat everyone with love and respect, because you are them. By having that "should," you're trying to convince yourself to act in a different way in order to fulfill the agenda of treating everyone with love and respect. In other words, you're trying to control the situation. Where does the illusion of control come from? Ego. 

Believing that we are one world family is just another paint color in the prison cell of beliefs that is ego. Become liberated from that prison cell, and you will feel no sense of obligation towards "others" because that "should" was seen through. By completely releasing the illusion of control, by being as spontaneous and agenda-free as a dog or a baby, people can't help but be affected in a positive way. 

Real liberation starts within you, and within you only. Change your perspective of the world, and you will change the world.

Edited April 5, 2016 by jjer94

[Henri]

@jjer94  Many years ago I had the fortuned bliss to experience samadhi.

That indescribable experience gave me profound knowledge about so many issues. One of them being; `yes indeed, the scriptures and sages are right, we are really all one`.

Being said you now know it`s not about belief, though I see your own point above is all about belief (!).

You can sit a fucking twenty years in your room waiting to get enlightened meanwhile the world around you is fallen apart without you even noticing it? Yeah mate, that`s the way.

You are missing the point.

I`m telling you that most people will be further on the path to enlightenment by doing karma-yoga or Seva than meditating in twenty years time.

By doing karma-yoga your developing your heart chakra, your life will be full with love and joy.

By fucking meditating in your room you`ll be lots of time miserable, selfish and pitying yourself. And even when you`ll become enlightened, you`ll be an enlightened jerk.

The wise thing off course, is to do both. That`s a true integral approach which will give you and the world the most benefit. And, by the way, gives you the most merit and destroys the past karma.

Leo`s way is just half the way, that`s why I asked him to shoot some video on Seva.

 

 

- 

[SkyPanther]

@Henri@jjer94

 

I actually agree with both of you.  From jjer94's point of view, the "Golden Chain" is just as much a prison as the "Iron Chain", meaning if you are forcing yourself to act a certain way (even if it's "good") you are still trapped by ego, and culture.   

But Henri's point of view is also valid, that people that just do plain Vipassana, without the "tranquility" of using the Brahma Viharas, creates some really.... cold "enlightened" people. 

The Gold chain should dissolve at some point, and you do good not because you think you "should" but because you realize the actions have various consequences, and doing "good(or neutral)" should become apparent.  The path (of the various yogi teachings) is supposed to be the training to get you to this point.  You will at first do good to counteract the bad habits.  But after awhile doing good just becomes apparent. 

To put it in another way, someone donating money because they think it will bring them good karma or merit vs someone donating because they see how it will change someone's life for the better.   There are shades of these two extremes, but one side is selfish, the other is not.  One is a egoic "want", the other is sympathetic joy/compassion. 

[Henri]

@SkyPanther  When I mean doing service I don`t mean the common stuff most Christians do. Though Christianity is well known for doing good to others, to my opinion it`s mostly high minded rather than truly from the heart. That`s definitely the wrong way.

It`s a pity that all the youngsters around here don`t have a clue about the heart stuff and the powers that lay hidden inside it. They don`t have a clue what kind of experience it is to have your consciousness, even just one time in your life, settling down in your heart rather than the mind. It`s life changing and so much easier to achieve. 

Despite all my meditations, my samadhi experience was triggered by a lost love, so in a way both mind and heart were necessary to reach that blessed state of samadhi. I wasn`t even consciously looking for it at that time. I think @Ayla will know were I`m talking about...

There is nothing for you to take away from this world. You have come to give.
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

[SkyPanther]

Just now, Henri said:

@SkyPanther  When I mean doing service I don`t mean the common stuff most Christians do. Though Christianity is well known for doing good to others, to my opinion it`s mostly high minded rather than truly from the heart. That`s definitely the wrong way.

It`s a pity that all the youngsters around here don`t have a clue about the heart stuff and the powers that lay hidden inside it. They don`t have a clue what kind of experience it is to have your consciousness, even just one time in your life, settling down in your heart rather than the mind. It`s life changing and so much easier to achieve. 

Despite all my meditations, my samadhi experience was triggered by a lost love, so in a way both mind and heart were necessary to reach that blessed state of samadhi. I wasn`t even consciously looking for it at that time. I think @Ayla will know were I`m talking about...

There is nothing for you to take away from this world. You have come to give.
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

I have been practicing(and initiated into) SKY (Simplified Kundalini Yoga), and include the Brahma Viharas (projecting from Anahata or Agnya to people and the six direction) as part of my open ended Buddhist meditation practice, which is called Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation (T.W.I.M.).

I agree that it is a lot more meaningful (not to mention plain fun) than the sometimes militaristic Goenka practice of Vipassana.  

I also agree on the charity observations you bring up.  A lot of people (even Hindus and Buddhists) give stuff only for the Merit/Karma. Which I think misses the whole point of both teachings.  

[jjer94]

3 hours ago, Henri said:

You can sit a fucking twenty years in your room waiting to get enlightened meanwhile the world around you is fallen apart without you even noticing it?

Humor me for a second Henri, because there will be resistance if you read onward. Have you ever stopped to consider where this "fallen apart" world is? Where all the bad things are happening? Where is the "bad-ness"? Contemplate that for a second before reading on.

You may notice that all the bad things in the world, the idea that the world is "fallen apart," is all in your head. Your mind created the idea that all the events happening in the world are somehow bad and need fixing, and because you are One with everything it is your duty to fix things and help others. Remove all these ideas, and things just are the way they are: absolutely perfect. Nothing ever needs to be fixed. I think it was Shakespeare who said, "There is no good or bad, only thinking makes it so."

While your belief in service and fixing the world is certainly noble, you're going to have to see through it eventually if you're on the pathless path to enlightenment. All beliefs are fundamentally limiting, and your true nature is unlimited. That doesn't mean stop believing in this particular belief; it just means see through it. See it for what it is: an arbitrary belief; a bunch of random words strung together in a children's rulebook. Also, see if you can find any hidden agendas in your belief. The one I mentioned before about being validated as a saintly human being is likely in there somewhere. 

Look, I'm not saying that all that service/Yoga/heart chakra stuff is useless if you want enlightenment. Literally anything can be useful as pointers to enlightenment, because it is a pathless path. There are no true methods for realizing your true nature, because you're already it. However, your beliefs about service and all that other stuff being necessary is limiting your true nature and your true spontaneity. In my opinion, to say that Leo's way or anyone's way is just half the way is "low consciousness," (I really don't like that phrase but couldn't think of any others) and you may want to re-examine your claim.

Cheers!

[99th_monkey]

do you think it might be a good idea to throw it all out and find what your true self might be before "comparing" it to other... thingies?

[Henri]

@jjer94 When somebody is starving on your doorstep, you give a helping hand, right?

That`s called service. I don`t mean you have to fly to Africa and feed them all. But whatever is in your opportunity and belongs to your responsibility you act. That`s called normal human behavior. The way you see things belonging to your responsibility got to do with your own developmental lines like the empathic one, the social one and the ethical one.

When one is developing in a spiritual way it is most natural one is developing also on those lines.

And sure, there`s no good and bad. There`s knowing and ignorance. When you know there`s a natural tendency to act.

[SkyPanther]

8 minutes ago, Henri said:

@jjer94 When somebody is starving on your doorstep, you give a helping hand, right?

That`s called service. I don`t mean you have to fly to Africa and feed them all. But whatever is in your opportunity and belongs to your responsibility you act. That`s called normal human behavior. The way you see things belonging to your responsibility got to do with your own developmental lines like the empathic one, the social one and the ethical one.

When one is developing in a spiritual way it is most natural one is developing also on those lines.

And sure, there`s no good and bad. There`s knowing and ignorance. When you know there`s a natural tendency to act.

I think this is also just something that is in our genetic makeup:

The Human Brain May Be Hardwired For Altruism; Certain Activity Inspires People To Be Kind And Generous

http://www.medicaldaily.com/human-brain-hardwired-altruistic-behavior-kind-and-generous-378606

 

I do also think practicing the Brahma-viharas strengthens and builds this neural pathway. 

And infact there is evidence for that as well:

Compassion Meditation Changes The Brain

Can we train ourselves to be compassionate? A new study suggests the answer is yes. Cultivating compassion and kindness through meditation affects brain regions that can make a person more empathetic to other peoples' mental states, according to new research.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326204236.htm

[Emerald]

13 hours ago, Dodoster said:

I am searching for my true self for few days now, and I stumbled on a question today, so let's ask it and see if anyone has an idea. 

Is my true self the same nothingness as your true self? Is the true self separate for each human or is it just 1 universal thing (no-thing)? Any thoughts?

Think about the parable of Indra's Diamond Net. It is a Buddhist metaphor based upon the Hindu God Indra who is said to have an infinitely large net that stretches on forever in every direction. At each of the intersection points of the net, is a jewel. And in this jewel reflects all the other jewels in the net which are also infinite in number. So, there is both only one jewel and an infinite number of jewels at the same time.

This is meant to demonstrate an answer to the question that you just asked, to show the possible perspectives that you can flip between when doing self-inquiry. You can entertain the notion that you are only one small jewel in the infinite net. You can also entertain the notion that you are the only jewel in the net that reflects all the other jewels. Notice how neither of these answers can ever be conclusive. This type of contemplation can help you deconstruct your taken for granted notions about the self and reality.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Henri said:

@jjer94 When somebody is starving on your doorstep, you give a helping hand, right?

That`s called service. I don`t mean you have to fly to Africa and feed them all. But whatever is in your opportunity and belongs to your responsibility you act. That`s called normal human behavior. The way you see things belonging to your responsibility got to do with your own developmental lines like the empathic one, the social one and the ethical one.

When one is developing in a spiritual way it is most natural one is developing also on those lines.

And sure, there`s no good and bad. There`s knowing and ignorance. When you know there`s a natural tendency to act.

@jjer94 isn't saying to stop helping people. In fact, someone who has woken up will likely be even more altruistic without even having to have an attachment to altruistic beliefs. He's saying that benevolent beliefs and actions won't yield enlightenment, and if not seen for what they are can actually impede enlightenment. Any and all attachments to the particulars of assumptions and beliefs (no matter how righteous) will keep you from seeing the truth, because ideas will write over top of reality every time. Beliefs are loud but pure being is almost silent. If beliefs aren't deconstructed, they will get in the way.

In order to experience enlightenment you have to see all of reality as it truly is beyond all beliefs, assumptions, and frameworks... including the ones related to the self and being a good person. You must also come to recognize that (despite your preferences toward altruism) that everything is perfect exactly as it is... this is the only way to truly have unconditional love and acceptance for all of existence. These are mandatory conditions for enlightenment. Which means that any "I need to fix..." thought (no matter how altruistic) will set you infinitely apart from waking up to enlightenment. Remember, everything is perfect exactly as it is, if you have the level of consciousness that allows you to perceive the perfection.

[jjer94]

29 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Sort of buddy friend.  I like your zeal, but your thinking requires development. Absolute truth is not the only truth.  I mentioned this analogy in another post, but if you got gangrene in your foot then no matter how much you think its "all ok", you still at risk of losing your foot.  And that is unhealthy.  To get stuck in the absolute is worse than being enlightened, it like the secular version of the anti-christ!

 

The thing is, absolute truth is the only truth. Truth as in, the only thing that's timeless, eternal, and encompassing absolutely everything. It's always true. Any other truth, especially so-called truth in words or truth in the phenomenal world, is finite and therefore untrue. That may sound dogmatic on paper, but the Truth I'm talking about is beyond words, as I'm sure you've already heard before. Using Kant's terminology: phenomena are transient and therefore untrue; noumena is eternal and therefore true.

This does not mean that I should stop eating, or stop weightlifting in order to gain muscle, or stop treating my gangrene-infested foot because I'm not absolutely sure if the medicine will work. If something works, it works! Cool! Keep doing it! However, that in no way makes anything in the phenomenal world absolutely true. All knowledge is belief, and no belief is true. We can predict with 99.9% accuracy that a red rubber ball will fall when we let go of it due to our ideas of gravity, but we can never be absolutely 100% certain that it will happen. As skeptical as this sounds, there is always a chance that it won't. 

Have you ever wondered what the substance of your sense perceptions are? I mean, not the stories you tell yourself about nerves and light and sound waves...but the actual subjective quality? When you really stop and think about it, you will begin to realize how little you know and how much you think you know.

Edited April 6, 2016 by jjer94

[jjer94]

4 minutes ago, Socrates said:

You right my friend.  I know nothing.  But I check reality with other people, if people are suffering and that their reality then there is lots to be done.  I don't buy into 1st person narcissistic spirituality, there is more than my perception going on.  You perspective sound a little bit solopsism??

Of course I could say there is nothing but 1st person narcissistic spirituality, that my first-person phenomenal perspective is the only perspective I know to exist (solipsism), that the idea of other perspectives is just a baseless assumption, that I have no way of confirming the existence of other "I Am's"...

But where's the fun in that!? I like to assume that there are other perspectives. To some degree, I even like to assume that I have free will. It makes the ride more entertaining, does it not? 

I'm digging the username, by the way.

 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

This isnt enlightenment.  This is wishful thinking and the ego labeling everything as divine.  The awakened state isnt perfection, it's just a feeling that there is nothing that isnt you.  Most of reality is mundane, the feeling of "perfection" comes from the relief of having seen through the illusion of self.  But nothing is ever seen as perfection.  Anybody who tells you this is not awakened.

This was probably the mushrooms doing the talking?

Have you ever had an enlightenment experience yourself?

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins I am enlightened

If you are enlightened, then I think you semantically misunderstand what I mean when I use the word perfection. But I never tried mushrooms. I was experimenting recreationally with Ayahuasca and it catalyzed an experience where I no longer identified with my self-concept, felt connected and inseparable from all of existence, all neuroses fell away, there was no fear even of death (in fact death became beautiful to me), traits and truths that I had long repressed came to the surface, I was more conscious of my emotions because I was allowing them, and I recognized the inherent perfection and completeness in all of existence. I was fully in touch with deep wisdom and no longer needed to seek but had a deep knowing of everything internal that I needed to know as a human being: no more and no less. Can you still not see that everything is perfect, despite your enlightenment?

Mind you, I'm going from memory as the experiences were not permanent. But it was very apparent to me that everything was perfect... the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[99th_monkey]

dont forget that this is all symbol based conjecture. And being a "representation" at best is still not even close to truth, further, this is all a "misrepresentation". should be taken with a grain of salt and enjoyed. not believed. 

love you guys/gals

[Dodo]

4 hours ago, jjer94 said:

Of course I could say there is nothing but 1st person narcissistic spirituality, that my first-person phenomenal perspective is the only perspective I know to exist (solipsism), that the idea of other perspectives is just a baseless assumption, that I have no way of confirming the existence of other "I Am's"...

But where's the fun in that!? I like to assume that there are other perspectives. To some degree, I even like to assume that I have free will. It makes the ride more entertaining, does it not? 

I'm digging the username, by the way.

 

Sounds to me like you're digging into Ego stuff here. Isn't the idea of enlightenment to realize that there is no actual *you* perceiving everything else? Especially with the free will, you are only feeding what you want to realize you're not? Or am I wrong?