Concentration vs. Awareness in Mindfulness Meditation

[Jack River]

5 minutes ago, Thesingularity said:

@Jack River You aren't paying attention. we are Information mechanisms, we are able to receive and produce information. You are at any time receive some information that you pay attention to and ignore the rest because of brain ability to process limited information at the time. Your brain chooses the information for you in accordance to  your usual state of mind. Most of it is trained by environment and all these practises is to reprogram your brain to be in your favour not against you. 

I understand dude. Thought chooses what info it wants and disregards what it doesn’t. That’s fear reacting and bringing about its bias. I don't want to be reprogrammed brah. Being limited to a program is not very favorable. That is conditioning. Why get rid of conditioning to recondition. That’s not what freedom means. Freedom means not being influenced by the program/conditioning. The program is a tool. But not all important. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jack River

[Thesingularity]

@Jack River No one forces you to do any thing dude! that's the process of Concentration and awareness. You can do whatever you want to do.

[Jack River]

@Thesingularity as long as a program influences action it’s never in your favor man. Using desire or concentration to end conditioning or the program. It’s not going to happen. 

[Jack River]

It’s a big game thought plays with itself. The cosmic joke dudes. Using conditioned methods to end conditioning is a tradition. This has been going on for thousands of years. Let’s break the contradicting patterns dudes. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jack River

[Thesingularity]

@Jack River I have no idea where do  you get this desire from. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Thesingularity

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, Thesingularity said:

@Jack River I have no idea where do  you get this desire from. 

Excaly man. That’s why it’s important to explore the nature of thought/self/psychological time. Conditioning/reconditioning/concentration and desire/fear/thought go hand and hand. It’s really all volition/will/“me”(illusion in movement). Desire is fear and fear is resistance. Resistance=attachment/identification. This all comes in the form of insight. It sees all of reality as one movement. It’s most excellent dude?

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jack River

[Thesingularity]

@Jack River I am interested in demystifying the mystical and not to add to it. I think you want to do more with mysticism witch is not the area i'm interested in. 

[Jack River]

All of the above= time/self

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Jack River said:

Control and concentration are the same. Control is divided attention. Attention or awareness is not divided and not controlled one bit. That’s the awsome part about this. The self=controller, divided attention, concentration, psychologically time. All of that comes from thought. Thought is hella gnarly isn’t it. 

Fuck I never realized this about concentration but I understand what you meant about techniques awhile back... something clicked when I read this thank yout pt. 2 dawg!

 

The thing is though, if one were to rest in a state of awareness, isn’t this the same mechanism of concentration, except like... infinitely expanded? So an open awareness of all of the present moment would be total expansion of a state of concentration. 

 

Concentration and awareness are both resting in the present moment. The difference is awareness is completely undivided.

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Thesingularity said:

@Jack River I am interested in demystifying the mystical and not to add to it. I think you want to do more with mysticism witch is not the area i'm interested in. 

No I don’t know what you mean dude. I am only referring to that of thought. Not talking about the unknown or anything. I am with you though man. We are consciousness. I just want to get this out in consciousness for those who want to avoid the conflict of time. 

[who chit]

Concentration practices,breathing methods,Yogic methods,contemplation,self inquiry,witnessing (i.e.,"passive observation"),etc.,have been around for thousands and thousands of years. Each have their merit,as has been proven by those who created them and those who have engaged in them. Gautama (Buddha) used inquiry neti neti, vipassana, mindfulness,witnessing,contemplation.

Gautama's desire to end suffering was his motivation,not enlightenment. But through the ages,even prior to his time,"spiritual methods" to realize/attain  God/Brahman/the Absolute/Nirvana/Satori etc., also just happened to end, and/or relieve, psychological suffering on the way to God/Nirvana etc,. Gautama felt the spiritual and metaphysical implications of these methods were only a distraction,and were not relevant to his life mission to end suffering. He used the methods,but threw out the associated spiritual connotations,and got himself a method to end suffering for the regular Joe Dirte Buddha, who needn't become a monk to end his suffering. Know wonder he was a popular dude.

What do 99.999% of people want most? "Happiness" which translates as freedom from suffering. Those strictly in the "enlightenment game"  for God/Brahman/Nirvana, are fewer than those looking for something that will make them "happy" or end their suffering. Why is mindfulness,meditation the most popular,talked about,written about (at least in the West), method of meditation among the many others?  Because they can relieve at least some of their suffering and not need to be associated with anything "spiritual" or metaphysical to do it. They can still be an atheist, a christian, a self righteous douche-bag, racist, scientist etc., and if they choose,have a verifiable "non-spiritual/non-religious"*cough,cough*, method to ease their suffering.

The "passive observation"(also called "witnessing") of thought Jack,faceless,robdl and a few others talk about as "not being a method", is totally a method , and nothing new. It's been a part of spiritual practices for thousands of years.

Why would,or does one, passively engage /observe/witness psychological movement/fear/ thought"? Because it is or was, having an undesired affect on their life,that causes at least some suffering. Why did,and still do,hoards of people" flock to Krishnamurti,Osho,Mooji,Tolle,Sadhguru,Spira etc., etc.,. ?
Many to realize or find God,Truth,yada yada,etc.,etc.,.. but I would say many more do it because of suffering. And thousands of years have verified the usefulness of "spiritual methods" to help end suffering. Those same methods that were developed to assist Realization.

Will spiritual methods/practices alone, bring you to Truth?  For many they have. They are a proven,verified,useful tool, to assist the seeker.
They would not be around today,and practiced by millions, if they were useless.

[Jack River]

20 minutes ago, Consilience said:

The difference is awareness is completely undivided.

Right dude. Concentration would be the function/movement and awareness is the ground. We no longer think the function/movement is the ground. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, who chit said:

The "passive observation"(also called "witnessing") of thought Jack,faceless,robdl and a few others talk about as "not being a method", is totally a method , and nothing new. It's been a part of spiritual practices for thousands of years.

Observation is not a method, practice, routine. It is not the result of thought movement. It’s not cultivation. It’s the ending of that. You know that brah? If you really see the truth of time there is no point in practice

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jack River
B

[Jack River]

11 minutes ago, who chit said:

Joe Dirte

Nice man joe dirte lol. I just watched that the other day. 

[who chit]

2 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Observation is not a method, practice, routine. It is not the result of thought movement. 

It's a passive method,but still a method. Not a "practice" or "routine" as such, but a method. There's passive methods and active methods. The passiveness, is "not attaching" or remaining detached. To just watch. Watching,detached observation,being attentive to thought,fear, movement is a doing,without being the doer.
It's not a psychological doing,but a doing nonetheless. Just like watching,being attentive,observing the movement of clouds in the sky. You don't attach, you just observe,watch attentively,yet remain detached. This is "witnessing" or "being the witness".
Observing without the observer is "witnessing". And witnessing has been around for thousands of years as a method. Krishnamurti isn't the first dude to come along and tell people to "just observe"and "remain detached". Self Inquiry,which J.Krish also used, is also a "method."

If the word "method" stirs up angst,I could instead say it is a "tool".

 

[who chit]

36 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Nice man joe dirte lol. I just watched that the other day. 

Lol,yeah. The buffalo bill run in cracked me up.

[luckieluuke]

@FredFred To get back to your question. Very nice observation! well done

When I was at a Vipassana the 2nd day I had a major headache. I asked the teacher if I should take a pill for it. He said no, the reason for my headache is that I try to hard during my meditation. I force my concentration to much. I trid to relax more and voila, my headache was gone!

Quality meditation is the middle way, its "effortless concentration"
Its the same with your posture when you meditate: you should sit up straight but in the same time be completely relaxed.
Instead of concentrate on your breath I would say "rest your attention" on your breath.
The two states you mentioned exist but there is no on and off transition. If I were you try to locate the transition that you speak of and be there
Take my words lightly thou as I´m not very far on this "enlightenment path" or what you´d call it.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by luckieluuke

[FredFred]

@luckieluuke Thanks luke

[Jack River]

9 hours ago, who chit said:

Lol,yeah. The buffalo bill run in cracked me up.

Lol yeah. That movie is funny dude. 

[Jack River]

9 hours ago, who chit said:

It's a passive method,but still a method. Not a "practice" or "routine" as such, but a method. There's passive methods and active methods. The passiveness, is "not attaching" or remaining detached. To just watch. Watching,detached observation,being attentive to thought,fear, movement is a doing,without being the doer.
It's not a psychological doing,but a doing nonetheless. Just like watching,being attentive,observing the movement of clouds in the sky. You don't attach, you just observe,watch attentively,yet remain detached. This is "witnessing" or "being the witness".
Observing without the observer is "witnessing". And witnessing has been around for thousands of years as a method. Krishnamurti isn't the first dude to come along and tell people to "just observe"and "remain detached". Self Inquiry,which J.Krish also used, is also a "method."

If the word "method" stirs up angst,I could instead say it is a "tool".

 

The point is a method points to a direction of attainment. That striving to attain is psychological time. The self inquiry into the nature of thought if we are honestly not looking for psychological security is not a method but simply an understanding. Understanding thought is not a method. It is understanding the nature of methods, techniques, systems and how they are in essence the self. As in desire seeking pleasure. A means that is then limited by the attachment to the reward. Any doing of desire is reactionary. But awareness without direction is not a reaction. It’s a doing but a doing that comes from intelligence. It's not a cultivated doing/action, but an action as a result of the ending of cultivation/time. The point is are we as ”the me” striving to get somewhere. If so that is a method or a means to an end.