How do I trust myself? (Self-doubt in nonduality)

[Shadowraix]

I grew up Christian then quickly transitioned into atheism and became a pretty hard skeptic slowly transitioning to that we can't know anything. I did find nonduality in the past year or so and I just had this deep "knowing" that this is the truth despite my critical approach to everything before. I had all these experiences that showed it to me.

Yet I always have these questions of "How do I know I can trust this feeling, these writings and teachings?" Nonduality makes logical sense but that isn't inherently evident that it is the answer yet I feel this feeling of just wanting to accept it. If I accept it as truth then I come off as indoctrinated and ideological. Especially when trying to explain it to people. One person would say "The kyballion is about as correct as elmo being God"

How do I know and trust a mind that constantly morphs data and hallucinates what I see?

My mind could easily trick me into thinking I "know" the truth. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Shadowraix

[fluidmonolith]

@Shadowraix

I also have this question. Non-duality is an attractive idea, but I know better than to believe it just because others do. As you say, that wouldn't be any different than accepting another ideology just based on popularity or authority. 

But we are still left with the question of where we derive truth from. Is it inherently better or worse to believe ourselves (our own experiences) than to believe others? And how do we know?. For a long time, I had the impression that questions like these could not be answered. I knew that these fundamental questions existed, but I didn't spend much time trying to answer them because I thought an answer was impossible to arrive at with any certainty. More recently I have decided that it might be possible to answer these questions, but I'm not yet sure how to go about answering them.

[Echoes]

@Shadowraix What does nonduality actually mean? doesn't it just mean "not two"? So how is "not two" true? And if "not two" is the actual reality, there is no such thing as "not two" because in comparison to what would it exist? In comparison to two/duality, which  does not exist if not two/nonduality is true? You can not compare reality with something else. Or to simplify: If nonduality would be reality, "nonduality" is already redudant, because then it is just reality. Reality != Nonduality. Reality = Reality

Reality can not be another topic like math, demonology, philosophy, etc. 

If you approach nonduality with the question if it can be true or not, you just made another topic out of it. Reality is already self evident and doesn't care if it's questioned. Trust your self evident being

Edited September 1, 2018 by Echoes

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, Echoes said:

@Shadowraix What does nonduality actually mean? doesn't it just mean "not two"? So how is "not two" true? And if "not two" is the actual reality, there is no such thing as "not two" because in comparison to what would it exist? In comparison to two/duality, which  does not exist if not two/nonduality is true? You can not compare reality with something else. Or to simplify: If nonduality would be reality, "nonduality" is already redudant, because then it is just reality. Reality != Nonduality. Reality = Reality

Reality can not be another topic like math, demonology, philosophy, etc. 

If you approach nonduality with the question if it can be true or not, you just made another topic out of it. Reality is already self evident and doesn't care if it's questioned. Trust your self evident being

There are a lot of various ideas that come with the nonduality paradigm. You can say everything is one but that is unsatisfactory and thats where you draw conclusions of some all infinite mind, true nature of consciousness etc.

A lack of something to compare it to isn't evidence that nonduality ideas is correct though. Not being able to think of an alternative doesn't inherently mean that an alternative does not exist.

What if our inherent structure of logic and ideas is entirely false and illusory. What if ideas within the nondual paradigm are partially correct and partially false?

How can I be certain and KNOW these things? I don't think I can. I can draw most likely conclusions. Wouldn't to see the true nature with certainty require absolute infinite knowledge?

 

[fluidmonolith]

30 minutes ago, K VIL said:

@fluidmonolith so how do you know when an answer has arrived?

That is something else I do not know at this time. It is very puzzling to me because some people seem very certain that they know things, whether they are religious leaders, gurus, scientists, or people with no credentials at all.  But in my experience, nothing is certain. Absolute certainty typically seems to be a result of the mind grossly over-simplifying things or making foundational assumptions about reality. Of course, just because I can't claim certainty of knowledge doesn't mean others can't. But I will also not just take anyone's word for it that they know something, without any additional evidence.

[Nahm]

13 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

mind that constantly morphs data and hallucinates what I see?

@Shadowraix You can trust that the mind creates the duality (“constantly morphs data and hallucinations”) but trust is only required for the job of getting you to be radically open minded, and to inquire into yourself - then trust is no longer needed, as awareness can observe the mind directly, just like being aware of a tree. Awareness is the only “thing” that ever “observes” the “mind” or “thought” or “tree”.

The overall is not looking for a needle in a haystack, it’s looking for hay in a haystack. It’s the biggest picture, the whole enchilada, it’s the obviousness & the entirety that is the “proof”, there is no thing which is not the proof. So a total flip of perspective is what’s needed. Something arising in your mind, is not needed, as that (thoughts), is more maya. 

Don’t “trust” information, data, etc - anything you “observe”, don’t “trust” that, it’s maya. Everything in “reality” can always be linguistically convincing & proven, and so can it’s opposite - because it simply boils down - to you. 

 

You already have the Truth. You are already it. 

 

Every thing, everyone, every object, every thought, every emotion, every reaction - each of these happen in the same place, at the same time, in You in Now. In YOUR awareness, right now. “My” writing is not taking place in your awareness, is it? What you are actually aware of, are pixels in front of you on a screen, which you are assigning whatever meaning, value and sense to. In appearance, it’s a message from someone else, in actuality, it’s you. 

Because the inherent nature of all that you experience, is Duality (One appearing as Two) ....each meets The Truth, or, You (Two is only an appearance, appearing in reality - One - You.)

When each ‘thing’ in duality meets up with The Truth (You), relativity is experienced, by You, because you are not finite duality (appearance/illusion), you are infinite (reality). 

 

(Relativity):

If it doesn’t feel good (a perspective you’re holding in the Now) -  that is because it (the understanding / perspective) isn’t true. It’s falsity. Most of these are bad feeling thoughts which try to apply a finite tag to your Self; “I am this, I am that.” “I am this kind of person” “I don’t know how to do X” “I always struggle with X” “I will never have X”  

If it does feel good (a perspective you’re holding in the Now) - that is because it (the understanding / perspective) Is True. Even if your honest “What I am” is - “I have no freakin idea what I am” - The fact that it is true, that you are being honest, that understanding / perspective, is true for You (The Truth), so naturally, it feels good. Much much better than finite thoughts & words about/against the self (which is infinite in actuality)

 

Falsity is Maya and it does not feel good. Feels worse the more we pursue it, ignoring our own relativity, our own emotional sensory system, if you will. 

Truth is the ‘What Is-ness’ of Now, because wherever you are, the Truth already Is. 

The term Nonduality points at not two. It is a pointer, like neti-neti, not that, not this,  not two. It is limited to being a statement of what you are not, by the nature of someone else is saying it to you, because only you can realize what you are, and your being-ness is always Truth, which perspectives are always being ‘bounced off’ of, resulting in the experience of relativity.  

 

 

 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, K VIL said:

@fluidmonolith so how do you know when an answer has arrived?

When you don’t have the question anymore. 

[Forestluv]

Logic and reasoning could only take me so far. . . 

For me concepts and direct experience go hand-in-hand. If I have a nondual experience without conceptual understanding, I will dismiss the the experience as being irrational and “whoo-whoo”. If I have conceptual understanding without direct experience I’m unaware I am dualistically conceptualizing nonduality.

Nonduality cannot be explained through  language. Every word or idea is dual - it is not another word or idea. Nonduality can only be pointed to. 

Imagine someone pointing in space. The arm and hand are words. Logical / rational thinking focuses on the arm and hand (words). That mindset will not “see” that which cannot be explained in space. It can’t take it’s attention of the arm/hand. 

I find nonduality really hard to talk about because evertime I say what nonduality IS, I would need to say it is also NOT that. 

Nonduality is oneness and not oneness. Nonduality is dual and nondual. Nonduality is form and formless. 

For me, once I started having glimpses into nondual experiences, I started to “get” what nondual speakers are trying to communicate. It just is. 

This is my best shot at describing no duality in a logical framework:

We often say: X is Y. You can use whatever words you want for X and Y. . . Yet, how the heck can X be Y? The human mind becomes hyper focused on the X and Y. That is a dual mindset. The nonduality is the . . . IS.

If you want to have direct experience on a dual mind in action, try this out. It helped me. . . 

For 5 minutes: everytime your mind tries to convine you X is Y, replace the thought with X IS X. 

Examples::

Orange juice (X) is my favorite drink (Y) becomes: Orange juice IS Orange Juice. A thought orange juice is my favorite drink IS a thought orange juice is my favorite drink. 

She is rude becomes: she IS she, rude IS rude and the thought she is rude IS the thought she is rude.

Rudeness is disrespectful can become: the thought rudeness IS disrespectful IS the thought rudeness us disrespectful.

The thought nonduality is illogical IS the thought nonduality is illogical.

That sunset is beautiful-> That sunset IS that sunset. The thought that sunset is beautiful IS the thought that sunset is beautiful.

For me, this exercise was unpalatable to my ego because it could not be fully dualustic. You will quickly see how dualistic your mind is. 

The exercise is not a nonduality. Rather it is a step away from duality. 

Look for yourself. For me, it became totally obvious that X IS X is true and X is Y isn’t true. The claim that X is Y is the biggest scam in human history. We fall for the scam because we get conditioned to believe X is Y when we are young children.

[Shadowraix]

@Nahm

And whats to say this infinite and infinitely intelligent mind is not a simulation of something bigger that is then mentally creating what we experience?

Whats to say a lot of nondual concepts hold some truth but aren't entirely true and its all one big path/possible outcome being simulated.

The raw idea of duality vs nonduality is a matter in how the mind perceives. But what if there is an alternative answer beyond comprehension?

We all rely on a few core principles to shape knowledge

1. Thought

2. Experience through mortal faculties.

Both of which can be utterly false. Imagine a person utterly convinced duality makes perfect sense and is the truth.

In general its about like that for mind to manifest us and project any idea it wants on its creation.

Almost feels like some big cosmic joke mind can choose for us to be aware of or not, or even make us think we are aware of some false alternative.

 

Also I am using nonduality very loosely than a very tight linguistic term. Consider it now all of the ideas of writings like the Kyballion or the more recent topics that Leo has taught. I'm talking about all the ideas that often come with nonduality paradigms. (I just often shortened it to nonduality for easy sake)

Edited September 1, 2018 by Shadowraix

[Shadowraix]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Logic and reasoning could only take me so far. . . 

For me concepts and direct experience go hand-in-hand. If I have a nondual experience without conceptual understanding, I will dismiss the the experience as being irrational and “whoo-whoo”. If I have conceptual understanding without direct experience I’m unaware I am dualistically conceptualizing nonduality.

Nonduality cannot be explained through  language. Every word or idea is dual - it is not another word or idea. Nonduality can only be pointed to. 

Imagine someone pointing in space. The arm and hand are words. Logical / rational thinking focuses on the arm and hand (words). That mindset will not “see” that which cannot be explained in space. It can’t take it’s attention of the arm/hand. 

I find nonduality really hard to talk about because evertime I say what nonduality IS, I would need to say it is also NOT that. 

Nonduality is oneness and not oneness. Nonduality is dual and nondual. Nonduality is form and formless. 

For me, once I started having glimpses into nondual experiences, I started to “get” what nondual speakers are trying to communicate. It just is. 

This is my best shot at describing no duality in a logical framework:

We often say: X is Y. You can use whatever words you want for X and Y. . . Yet, how the heck can X be Y? The human mind becomes hyper focused on the X and Y. That is a dual mindset. The nonduality is the . . . IS.

If you want to have direct experience on a dual mind in action, try this out. It helped me. . . 

For 5 minutes: everytime your mind tries to convine you X is Y, replace the thought with X IS X. 

Examples::

Orange juice (X) is my favorite drink (Y) becomes: Orange juice IS Orange Juice. A thought orange juice is my favorite drink IS a thought orange juice is my favorite drink. 

She is rude becomes: she IS she, rude IS rude and the thought she is rude IS the thought she is rude.

Rudeness is disrespectful can become: the thought rudeness IS disrespectful IS the thought rudeness us disrespectful.

The thought nonduality is illogical IS the thought nonduality is illogical.

That sunset is beautiful-> That sunset IS that sunset. The thought that sunset is beautiful IS the thought that sunset is beautiful.

For me, this exercise was unpalatable to my ego because it could not be fully dualustic. You will quickly see how dualistic your mind is. 

The exercise is not a nonduality. Rather it is a step away from duality. 

Look for yourself. For me, it became totally obvious that X IS X is true and X is Y isn’t true. The claim that X is Y is the biggest scam in human history. We fall for the scam because we get conditioned to believe X is Y when we are young children.

Logic and reason is an interesting thing for it seems to be an inherent function in thinking, but im skeptical on if that even holds even ground. Infinite realities means one in which current logic and reason is nonlogical.

Buying into a lot of these ideas that derive from the nondual paradigm often makes me feel deluded even though they make a lot of sense.

[Thanatos13]

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Shadowraix You can trust that the mind creates the duality (“constantly morphs data and hallucinations”) but trust is only required for the job of getting you to be radically open minded, and to inquire into yourself - then trust is no longer needed, as awareness can observe the mind directly, just like being aware of a tree. Awareness is the only “thing” that ever “observes” the “mind” or “thought” or “tree”.

The overall is not looking for a needle in a haystack, it’s looking for hay in a haystack. It’s the biggest picture, the whole enchilada, it’s the obviousness & the entirety that is the “proof”, there is no thing which is not the proof. So a total flip of perspective is what’s needed. Something arising in your mind, is not needed, as that (thoughts), is more maya. 

Don’t “trust” information, data, etc - anything you “observe”, don’t “trust” that, it’s maya. Everything in “reality” can always be linguistically convincing & proven, and so can it’s opposite - because it simply boils down - to you. 

 

You already have the Truth. You are already it. 

 

Every thing, everyone, every object, every thought, every emotion, every reaction - each of these happen in the same place, at the same time, in You in Now. In YOUR awareness, right now. “My” writing is not taking place in your awareness, is it? What you are actually aware of, are pixels in front of you on a screen, which you are assigning whatever meaning, value and sense to. In appearance, it’s a message from someone else, in actuality, it’s you. 

Because the inherent nature of all that you experience, is Duality (One appearing as Two) ....each meets The Truth, or, You (Two is only an appearance, appearing in reality - One - You.)

When each ‘thing’ in duality meets up with The Truth (You), relativity is experienced, by You, because you are not finite duality (appearance/illusion), you are infinite (reality). 

 

(Relativity):

If it doesn’t feel good (a perspective you’re holding in the Now) -  that is because it (the understanding / perspective) isn’t true. It’s falsity. Most of these are bad feeling thoughts which try to apply a finite tag to your Self; “I am this, I am that.” “I am this kind of person” “I don’t know how to do X” “I always struggle with X” “I will never have X”  

If it does feel good (a perspective you’re holding in the Now) - that is because it (the understanding / perspective) Is True. Even if your honest “What I am” is - “I have no freakin idea what I am” - The fact that it is true, that you are being honest, that understanding / perspective, is true for You (The Truth), so naturally, it feels good. Much much better than finite thoughts & words about/against the self (which is infinite in actuality)

 

Falsity is Maya and it does not feel good. Feels worse the more we pursue it, ignoring our own relativity, our own emotional sensory system, if you will. 

Truth is the ‘What Is-ness’ of Now, because wherever you are, the Truth already Is. 

The term Nonduality points at not two. It is a pointer, like neti-neti, not that, not this,  not two. It is limited to being a statement of what you are not, by the nature of someone else is saying it to you, because only you can realize what you are, and your being-ness is always Truth, which perspectives are always being ‘bounced off’ of, resulting in the experience of relativity.  

 

 

 

You could just say you don't know. 

I don't really believe in nonduality. To me it's just another grab by humans in an attempt to be infinite.

But reality is not evident it is assumed. You are not infinite, that is merely a guess. You are not reality, it would be accurate to say you are a brain. 

Things happen in and out of your awareness, they do all the time. 

Thing is you can't really make claims about reality from personal experience since you just make up a story to make sense of what you feel. Feeling nondual doesn't make you so. It's just a sense or feeling. There is something to be said about how it goes away when you stop believing in it. Nonduality probably isn't truth, it's just the result of a set of actions. I know because I turn it on and off. I thought my way to it, even though people say you can't. 

But personally I think it's a waste of time. There better things to me that it. 

Especially since you never really know if you are there or if it is the truth and not merely what we assume to be the truth. We assume stripping things away gets you truth, but what if it doesn't? Even the experience of others doesn't really tell us anything since 1. they can't describe it and 2. we cannot measure it. You can say you "get it" but you cannot be sure. 

Also to burst your "now" bubble, we are never in the now. We are always a little bit behind it. Technically we are continually a little in the past. Being is not truth, that is just an assumption. What is true is that you are a brain and the states of mind you speak of can be influenced by probing it. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Thanatos13

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

@Nahm

And whats to say this infinite and infinitely intelligent mind is not a simulation of something bigger that is then mentally creating what we experience? You.

Whats to say a lot of nondual concepts hold some truth but aren't entirely true and its all one big path/possible outcome being simulated. You.

The raw idea of duality vs nonduality is a matter in how the mind perceives. The idea is but the actuality isn’t an idea.  But what if there is an alternative answer beyond comprehension? Only you could know then, you just wouldn’t be able to tell anyone, limited to words.

We all rely on a few core principles to shape knowledge

1. Thought

2. Experience through mortal faculties.

Both of which can be utterly false. Imagine a person utterly convinced duality makes perfect sense and is the truth. It is. 

In general its about like that for mind to manifest us and project any idea it wants on its creation.  It is You. 

Almost feels like some big cosmic joke mind can choose for us to be aware of or not, or even make us think we are aware of some false alternative. Absolutely. 

 

Also I am using nonduality very loosely than a very tight linguistic term. Consider it now all of the ideas of writings like the Kyballion or the more recent topics that Leo has taught. I'm talking about all the ideas that often come with nonduality paradigms. (I just often shortened it to nonduality for easy sake) What are examples of nonduality paradigms?

 

[Nahm]

@Thanatos13 Hold an object in your hand, and ask me what you’re holding. 

[Thanatos13]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

 

If only you "know" then how can you be sure it is truth?

Again we end up with a waste of time since you can never truly "know" you just tell yourself that you do based on X, y,z.

[Thanatos13]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Thanatos13 Hold an object in your hand, and ask me what you’re holding. 

Said object. 

[Leo Gura]

Cough... cough...

https://www.actualized.org/articles/the-paradox-of-developing-self-trust

[Shadowraix]

7 hours ago, Nahm said:

 

Saying it is me doesn't seem like a solid answer. "God is in the earth worm but the earth worm is far from God."

I may be a part of this big mind, but to shout and say "I am God!" is a half truth.

So speaking in the perspective that I am this mind. I could simply create life like humans in which they could never know the whole answer. See if I designed this body to never be able to have certainty that I designed it and to stray away from the actual truth by forcing other ideas to be logical and the actual truth to be nonsensical in the mind. So then I can see how I myself acts.

Nonduality may imply duality is false, but does that mean we should resort to singularity as the answer? You might ask "What other way could it be?" and even if I answer "I don't know" that isn't actually solid proof that alternatives don't exist.

If I designed myself to be deluded from the get go, isn't the actual Truth unknowable?

And if this mind is a simulation of something bigger, is it possible to design it in such a way that it can't ever know it is a simulation?

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Cough... cough...

https://www.actualized.org/articles/the-paradox-of-developing-self-trust

I haven't gone through your entire library of videos, so I didn't catch that. Much appreciated. Will watch/finish soon.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Shadowraix

[Shadowraix]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Cough... cough...

https://www.actualized.org/articles/the-paradox-of-developing-self-trust

This was a very useful video. Essentially the problem is I haven't done enough contemplation. The self doubt I am having is normal per se. To turn my skepticism inward and trying to sort out what I can and can't trust, but that is something where I haven't reached the light at the end of the tunnel yet.