Mystical experiences vs radical recontextualizations

[tsuki]

@now is forever So, you are learning to fly your first dragon?
Don't forget to set it free once you're done. It will wither in captivity.

Edited August 6, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

i already started to set it free, don‘t you see it, it’s just a spirit in this world.

Edited August 6, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

@now is forever To you, are there any other boundaries than the boundary between the real world and fantasy?
I can see many boundaries and I am talking about how to turn all of them into mirrors.
What I call a boundary, or a mirror is not specific to reality vs fantasy.
It is about any X vs Y.

[now is forever]

@tsuki if it’s all just one, anyways, you can always put a mirror in between. if it‘s just your inside view. and yes there are boundaries for me - they are different dragons some of them are very concrete ones and sometimes i walk away from them or i try to stand them or i try to disconstruct them. and i just discovered the boundaries between heart and head. but there are boundaries between heart and hands or head and hands and hands and matter. between chaos and order etc. it’s better to take one problem a time but usually they seem to come all at once. 

i‘m also an selfactualizer you see - i‘m not a superwoman  maybe in my phantasy. and i‘m working on it.

Edited August 6, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

@tsuki Why don't you want to learn how to fly dragons? 

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@now is forever To you, are there any other boundaries than the boundary between the real world and fantasy?
I can see many boundaries and I am talking about how to turn all of them into mirrors.
What I call a boundary, or a mirror is not specific to reality vs fantasy.
It is about any X vs Y.

@tsuki I noticed in your drawing that the word REFLECTION was reflected, but the Earth was inverted. Was that on purpose?

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Zweistein

[tsuki]

34 minutes ago, Zweistein said:

Why don't you want to learn how to fly dragons? 

@Zweistein I do want to learn how to fly dragons! I just now it's impossible.
Dragons are so magnificent that learning how to fly one makes you want to keep it.
If you keep it, then you have to take care of it. The problem is that dragons look nothing alike.
If you become too used to it, then you lose your edge in spotting them.
If you hold on for too long - you're done. The more you hold on, the more incentive there is to hold on.
Since dragons fly nothing alike one another, then learning how to fly one doesn't help you one bit.
At best, you can learn how to fly a dragon. But to fly dragons? Impossible.

34 minutes ago, Zweistein said:

@tsuki I noticed in your drawing that the word REFLECTION was reflected, but the Earth was inverted. Was that on purpose?

The word is not REFLECTION, but PROJECTIONS. I did it by accident, but I guess that a fool cannot be wrong after all.
It gives a nice touch of ambiguity, doesn't it?

PS. I hold your story as very important and I will address it. Thank you for sharing it.

Edited August 6, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki hahaha so funny. the dragon also stands for the dream in general for inner difficulties of alignment - energy flow. i‘m just a little tired and then it gets messy. 

i see how the same might have happened to you. i mean dragons are also challenges inside your inner world. and yes it‘s better to fly one dragon a time or stick with one.

two dragons are also a symbol for feminine and masculine. so i see how messi it can get  if the symbol is not aligned with the context. 

maybe tsuki - you should find out what your dragons are. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by now is forever
zooming in is a hungry dragon

[Zweistein]

?? yeah let's take a break and laugh a little ??

It's one of the most efficient ways to heal, isn't it? ?

Deep discussions like this may also need a bit more time for contemplating, don't they?

Interesting that I wrote REFLECTIONS - that actually requires a mirror plane (at least in crystallography), whereas PROJECTIONS tend to enlarge small images onto a big screen. Hmmm,  and INVERSIONS are reflections through a central point. In crystallography, there are also screw-axes and glide planes, but maybe that's a topic for another day ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Zweistein

[Zweistein]

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@Zweistein I do want to learn how to fly dragons! I just now it's impossible.
Dragons are so magnificent that learning how to fly one makes you want to keep it.
If you keep it, then you have to take care of it. The problem is that dragons look nothing alike.
If you become too used to it, then you lose your edge in spotting them.
If you hold on for too long - you're done. The more you hold on, the more incentive there is to hold on.
Since dragons fly nothing alike one another, then learning how to fly one doesn't help you one bit.
At best, you can learn how to fly a dragon. But to fly dragons? Impossible.

 

Did I say that you should fly them at the same time? ? I think it can't hurt trying different types of dragons ?

[now is forever]

42 minutes ago, Zweistein said:

Interesting that I wrote REFLEXIONS - that actually requires a mirror plane (at least in crystallography), whereas PROJECTIONS tend to enlarge small images onto a big screen. Hmmm,  and INVERSIONS are reflections through a central point. In crystallography, there are also screw-axes and glide planes, but maybe that's a topic for another day ??

@Zweistein ? mirrorplane - maybe we can support everyone with „fertigpizza“ ? soon. 

christallography, inversions etc. sounds interesting. after all this zooming i get also hungry for this topic.

another day. ☺️

Edited August 6, 2018 by now is forever

[SgtPepper]

this thread is cool as fuck

 

[SoothedByRain]

@SgtPepper It is a golden thread

[tsuki]

@SgtPepper @SoothedByRain What if I told you that all threads are like that, but we're not paying attention?

Edited August 6, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

23 hours ago, Zweistein said:

Would it help if you treat the statement "the world needs healing" as reality and the statement "teacher=student" as illusion (it usually is, right?). So, if we want to change reality, it would help if we don't stay stuck in an illusion, wouldn't it?

13 hours ago, Zweistein said:

We could also treat the statement "the world needs healing" as illusion and the statement "teacher=student" as reality or both as illusion or both as reality. After all, reality = illusion, right?

@Zweistein There are concrete examples of X vs Y. There is a teacher vs pupil, there is reality vs illusion, there is duality and non-duality and there is relative vs absolute. What I referred to as teacher vs pupil so far is this general X vs Y of any dualities. From now on, I will use this teacher vs pupil as a concrete example of X vs Y. That is because I suspect that this is a basis for misunderstanding. 

So, if we take a concrete example of X vs Y: teacher vs student, there is a duality that is rejected on the basis of forming a paradox with the belief that the world needs healing. They form a concrete example of a paradox in one particular perspective.
However, what I am referring to is not a concrete example of X vs Y. I am referring to the X vs Y itself which is an ambiguous symbol for all dualities.
All dualities, including a duality: duality vs non-duality.
In this perspective of X vs Y, any rejection and conflict is observed in relation to the Paradox. This is the total paradox. The paradox of all paradoxes. That which is common to all paradoxes within all possible perspectives in which they arise.
Paradox is not a belief. It is a blockage of learning (?).

When you are willing to surrender to a paradox within a particular perspective in which there is a particular duality, then you experience I=you=we from within this particular perspective.
It is obvious within this particular perspective, that what you see is what you project and the internal conflict can be resolved via the movement through paradox. The movement through the paradox is what I call zooming.
When you surrender to paradox of good and evil, you can zoom into good to see evil and into evil to see good.
Conflict between beliefs is nonsensical. There can be no: teacher is not a pupil because the world needs healing.
You zoom into a teacher and get a pupil. You zoom into a pupil and you get a teacher.
The healing of the world has nothing to do with it from this particular perspective.

When you are not willing to surrender to a particular paradox in a particular perspective, then you experience 'the other' in this particular perspective and there is a boundary between the two of you.
In this resistance, beliefs are coupled because zooming is unavailable.
It is only then, that teacher is not a pupil because the world needs healing.

Resistance is co-existent in paradox, zooming and 'the other'. It disappears in all of the three at once along with the boundary.
Surrender is co-existent in all of the three as well and it is only then, when the boundary becomes a mirror.
Surrender and resistance are not things that can be 'done'. They are driven by intuition.
By honestly talking about things you have no idea about and observing the nonsense that you produce.
Once the surrender has been experienced in one particular perspective, a belief is born that all is one. 

They I=you=we as I experience it is always through a particular perspective.
What I am trying to get at is the movement through all paradoxes. What is common to all zooming.
How to solve all dualities and to decouple all beliefs. So that any belief that may manifest itself and projects a duality will be trivial.

That is what I mean by learning how to fly dragons.
I can fly a dragon pretty well.
I have become the fool of fools.

Edited August 6, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki i‘m sure @Zweistein will give an answer, too. 

what about you are right, but you are not right? what if it’s all a matter of inclusion. after all reality is a paradox, we are born to die anyways, in the sense of we are trying to coap reality with the phantasy realm without even knowing to fly a dragon properly.

why is it a vs anyways? you just subtracted all of us from your view. intentionally or not.

i know most people communicate like that. but in zooming in you need someone who is willing to let you zoom. and all you get is a perspective.

the difference between a teacher and a student lies in the way of communication. yes of course you can always take the counter perspective. and then you get the broadest „knowledge“ but you can also take both perspectives and just let them stand as they are and sink in. and get some kind of wisdom.

isn‘t that the unity of opposites? speaking of tao. 

just referring to shaping material, where all learning started how does the art piece speak to the artist or the object to the designer shaping them at the same time? how do we learn from matter and still put our spirit into it without resistance?

of course you can do icesculpting with a chainsaw... if it’s the given material. but you can also use the ceramic wheele. of both perspectives. what’s more tao?

so what is a blockage of learning? a paradox? depends on where you want to go. 

is it a „belief“ that the world needs some kind of healing. might be if you have given up teaching.

so i suppose it‘s almost the same view we are taking, with some differences in how to fly dragons.

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever
by the way who is the teacher the ceramic or the wheel thrower?

[Zweistein]

@tsuki

Do you think I do anything else than surrender to paradoxes? My thoughts feel like shapeshifters these days. I totally get your perspective - do you get mine, too? ?

Again, I love how you derive "your" perspective and it feels just like mine. ?

Edited August 7, 2018 by Zweistein

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Zweistein said:

@tsuki

Do you think I do anything else than surrender to paradoxes? My thoughts feel like shapeshifters these days. I totally get your perspective - do you get mine, too? ?

Again, I love how you derive "your" perspective and it feels just like mine. ?

@Zweistein Honestly, I don't even know how to respond to a question like: do you get mine?
I can squeeze myself into a perspective from which what you write makes perfect sense.
I can also respond by squeezing myself into a perspective from which you are wrong.
Neither of those movements seem satisfactory to me, because there is no reason whatsoever to do any of them.
Why would I surrender myself to you? Why would I want you to surrender to me? We're alike.
That is why my answers always feel like yneos. It feels like I have no mouth to express what I mean.
It's so funny. It makes me curious. I'm looking for my mouth, have you seen it?

Oh, and thank you for your compliments. |

Edited August 7, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

what about you are right, but you are not right? what if it’s all a matter of inclusion. after all reality is a paradox, we are born to die anyways, in the sense of we are trying to coap reality with the phantasy realm without even knowing to fly a dragon properly.

@now is forever There is nothing to know and that's the point. You just gotta do it.
You just have to be present to whatever is without pre-expectations that are accumulated as knowledge.
This drive to talk in the language of reality (talk, sing, dance, move, draw, sculpt, do) is driven by intuition.
In this movement that is driven by intuition you deplete your knowledge tanks to arrive at stillness.
In this stillness without pre-expectations, only then you can notice dragons. Dragons then teach you to fly.
The more dragons you see, the more you learn about the process of taming them.
If you let yourself store this knowledge about this process of taming dragons, then you also have to deplete it to arrive at stillness.
Only then, you are allowed to see the dragon of all dragons. Don't all dragons feel that way though?

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

why is it a vs anyways? you just subtracted all of us from your view. intentionally or not.

You call that subtraction and I call that inclusion. The symbols have always been blurred and you, yourself, made them concrete.
All that I did was to assert their lack of boundaries. The sense in which you spoke about them did not get invalidated because of that.
What I talk about is how to turn a X vs Y into X=Y. By turning the boundary into a mirror.
If 'I' did anything to you, then there is a boundary between us and it is a vs.
Not in a sense of a fight. There can be a vs in cooperation as well.
There is neither a fight, nor a cooperation when there is =.

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

the difference between a teacher and a student lies in the way of communication. yes of course you can always take the counter perspective. and then you get the broadest „knowledge“ but you can also take both perspectives and just let them stand as they are and sink in. and get some kind of wisdom.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. Neither teacher, nor a student.
Not taking the stance of a teacher. Not taking the stance of a pupil by taking the counter perspective.
Neither teacher nor a pupil is letting them stand and sink in. That is only possible by turning the boundary into a mirror.
It is what turns a 'vs' into a '='. This is what indifference is. Remaining in sinking in is what constitutes continuous zoom.

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

just referring to shaping material, where all learning started how does the art piece speak to the artist or the object to the designer shaping them at the same time? how do we learn from matter and still put our spirit into it without resistance?

In order to see that you are neither an artist, nor an art piece you have to deplete your knowledge about the subject via contemplation.
This depletion is not done through any language in particular, but the one that is appropriate for you. The one that you recognize via intuition and resonate with. You may deplete this knowledge via speaking in painting, or in English, or in a language in which you speak to a car when you drive it.
The depletion is not a rejection as in "I'm not listening tra la la la!". It is done via honestly putting yourself on the line, using your knowledge, and speaking confidently as if you knew everything about it (which you are 100% sure you are, but you also know that you are not right!). Contemplation is done in expectation of being made a fool.
In this process of contemplation, the symbols for an artist and an art piece become ambiguous. The lines become blurred. There are more and more things that fit into them effortlessly. At some point, they will become ambiguous enough so that you will effortlessly fit one into another. An art piece becomes an artist and an artist becomes an art piece. There is a '=' instead of 'vs'.
At that point, there is no more learning. You arrive at stillness and effortlessness.
There is no difference between you speaking through an art piece and an art piece speaking through you.
There is a mirror instead of a boundary and in that, there is I=you=we instead of the artist and an art piece.
What I contemplate here is the way to arrive at I=you=we in any duality of opposites.
It is a contemplation about the duality of contemplation and non-contemplation. How fun it is going to be .

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

of course you can do icesculpting with a chainsaw... if it’s the given material. but you can also use the ceramic wheele. of both perspectives what’s more tao?

Tao of the design is, as always, stillness. Not a vs, but a =.

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

so i suppose it‘s almost the same view we are taking, with some differences in how to fly dragons.

I don't think so. You seem to be aware of the possibility of what I am speaking about, but you seem to miss its depth.
I am not speaking to teach you anything. I am contemplating in relation to your responses and hoping that it brings you some benefit.
I am not taking responsibility for it, though.

Edited August 7, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

17 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Tao of the design is, as always, stillness. Not a vs, but a =.

no it is the wheele that’s throwing them. it is the stillness in movement. 

it is matter vs hands together they are oneness with.............

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

@now is forever Sigh... That's what I'm saying.
Maybe what I'm looking after is the Tao of Tao.

lol