Does the current sprial stage really learn from it´s past stage(s)?

[luckieluuke]

In a big way, I don´t identify with a way Spiral dynamics operates.
I am personally part blue/orange/green/yellow: I value traditions and discipline. I Value free market and competition. I truly believe Love and being at peace with nature is most important. I am part of building an ecological Village to improve future civilization and have a good job. Come to think of it I am part each stage under Yellow but not one in particular.
I really don´t identify as being part of one or even two or three stages. This makes sense if you consider that each stage entails all the stages below it (ie I would have gone through them). But if that is the case why is the end of stages so painful? how can we be so blind when we have travelled through past stages. It seems they build upon eachother.

Imagine a person who was blue but is now mid stage Orange. How can he/she go even further into Orange so that they don´t care about others and only material things if heshe truly have learned the lessons of stage blue? And if heshe later goes into green how can that person "forget" the individuality and entrepreneurship from stage Orange?

It seems to me that different parts of me are in different stages. Im not sure I have went to the very late stages of blue->green. Does one have to? I don´t think so but It seems Spiral dynamics says yes.

It´s easier to apply Sprial dynamics to humankind and civilizations. They are easier to box in for some reason. But people are very difficult to box in. They are if you just meet them but the more I get to know a person my initial judgement are always partially proven wrong.

How about you? Do you feel strongly connected to a certain stage?

[Hansu]

This has been a problem for me too as i have blue beliefs for maintaining our army and borders, while i have orange beliefs of individuality and i have strong green beliefs of doing my all to keep the peace(which ironically strenghtens my blue ideas), i have very strong emotions, no problems with femininity and i can see the beauty in things like an old movie where there is a dog that have died tens of years ago, but in my minds eye i kind of see the life of the dog and i become happy for the joy it has brought into the world, and still brings in form of this old movie.

Ideologically if every single people on the planet was a perfect green, the planet would be saved. But here we stumble upon the problem of many green people, which is blind belief to the ideology and not taking in the fact, that if a country became 100% green while the rest of the world stays the same, there is a high danger that the country is occupied by tanks of a blue country within a century.

What i am attempting to do is that i try to abolish my blue ideas, delve into the orange ideas, research them and try to move to green. When i feel like i am truly in green stage and there is no residue left from stage orange or blue, then i will look back and wonder if it was right move to fully leave the stages. I do this because if i don't keep the possibility of going back to holding orange and blue values, then my mind probably wont let to let go of these values in the first place

Hope i could help

 

PS: How i like to rationalize this is that i can become even stage yellow, but still understand the need for blue and orange and use those values to bring more people closer to my stage. I believe that the reason why Leo says that "you cannot move to a higher stage until you become the earlier stage" is, that you cant turn blue country to green, or orange country to yellow etc. Its too much change that just results in a huge ego backlash.

So if you are yellow and you want to raise a red country to your own level, then you have to "turn yourself into red/blue stage individual" and use the red/blue ideologies to turn this country to sufficient level of blue. After that is done, you use parts of blue/orange to turn the country to stage orange. I like to believe that this is why Leo says "Dont skip the orange stage and rush to green, dwelve in the orange stage and understand what it means to be orange" or something like that. Please correct me if im wrong

EDIT:

-C. G. Jung, in his book "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" recalls a conversation he had with a Native American man:
The whites eyes have staring expression. They are always seeking something. What are they seeking? The whites always want something, they are always uneasy and restless. We do not know what they want, we do not understand them, we think that they are mad.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Hansu

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Hansu said:

The whites eyes have staring expression. They are always seeking something. What are they seeking? The whites always want something, they are always uneasy and restless. We do not know what they want, we do not understand them, we think that they are mad.

Lol

[mostly harmless]

previous stages are integrated. each stage has the task to deal and manage specific challenges. a more simplified version is maslow's  hierarchy of needs.

if you immigrate to another city or country, you may have to rebuild your self starting from lower levels again. that can be a great chance to re-invent yourself, basically, as upper levels build on lower fundamentals. moving to a new city when you grow up can therefore help a lot .

 

 

 

[Hansu]

4 hours ago, Outer said:

The jew eyes have staring expression. They are always seeking something. What are they seeking? The jews always want something, they are always uneasy and restless. We do not know what they want, we do not understand them, we think that they are mad.

Gee! I wonder what could possibly be the answer!

But no no no, just keep sitting and complaining, maybe you can buy an indian hat and smoke a peace pipe and hope that magical scorpion crawls out of your toaster and tells you the ultimate truth about jews.

[Scholar]

I think you might be overemphasizing ideology. You seem to be talking about what you believe and what you value, instead ask yourself what you actually do. Are you yourself very disciplined and traditional? Are you competing and taking part in the free market? Are you full of love and peace? There is a difference between what you believe and what you actually are. Spiral Dynamics is a model for consciousness development, not mere ideology and belief.

This development is actually happening unconsciously in most people. They are not aware of the fact that they are going through a transformation of consciousness, of their actual subjective reality. Most people know something is changing in them, but they do not really reflect deeply upon it.

The reason why each stage in spiral dynamics has it's own flaws is precisely because in each new stage one has to learn once more where the limits of that particular stage are. For example, once you are out of blue, you clearly know why blue is so limited, that reaction is what is stage orange. Because you are progressing through these stages unconsciously, you are not even aware that orange exists, or that you are at a new stage. You simply evolve and demonize what you left behind, because you clearly can see where the limits are. The spiral dynamics model simply describes how these reactions in general develop. It's not that spiral dynamics is a model for the consciousness development of all human beings, it is a model for the general consciousness development of humans. It's more of an average of how things tend to go, not an absolute pathway every human takes. Additionally, because it is an average, it might not even the case that most people go through the stages as the spiral dynamics model shows. Like if you create an average face out of every face on the planet, you will have the perfect average, but that does not mean that most people look like that average face.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3cd3902a15d02b68538bced988da2f53-c

Most people don't look like that, but it's still the average.

Stage yellow for example is defined as a stage when a human being becomes conscious of the fact that he went through stages in life, that is why in stage yellow you understand the fact that you went through the spiral. You are conscious of the fact that you changed your perspective multiple times, and more importantly how helpless you actually were. You were never in control of your consciousness, and now that you are aware of that fact, you can actually take control of your perspective. 

What is interesting of course is how the spiral dynamics model itself can influence the development of the human consciousness. The empirical data used for spiral dynamics was data used before the spiral dynamics model existed, so we have no clear data on how the development is influenced by it (at least I'm not aware of any data regarding that). It might be that if spiral dynamics becomes part of mainstream ideology, the way people progress through the spiral might change dramatically as well. Who knows, it's like the collective is evolving self-awareness. And just like with the individual, a bit of yellow can already make a dramatic difference. So it is possible that as a certain critical mass of yellow is reached, it might heave the entire civilization into yellow much more rapidly than we would have assumed.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Scholar

[Joseph Maynor]

Lemme ask you something — do you assume a painting is a photograph?  No. Any why not?  Because we understand that the painting, by its very nature, is a model.  Stop mixing models with reality.  The only question for you is — how can Spiral Dynamics aid me in my growth?  Maybe you don’t think you need to grow, I don’t know.   You guys are all confused over Tier-One Epistemology ways of interpreting conceptual systems.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Clayman]

Its a tool mate, just as a cup is. Drink and dig with it you can, cut a tree u can't.

[luckieluuke]

@Hansu  The question is should you abolish your blue ideas as you move into orange, and abolish those ideas when you move into green? What needs to be done is rather to transform those ideas, build upon them. 

@Scholar 

14 hours ago, Scholar said:

he reason why each stage in spiral dynamics has it's own flaws is precisely because in each new stage one has to learn once more where the limits of that particular stage are. For example, once you are out of blue, you clearly know why blue is so limited, that reaction is what is stage orange.

3

But Spiral dynamics implies you moved from a stage earlier. In my mind I feel each stage can be generalized as exploring an idea and learning from it. When you are out of blue you should not only remember the limitations but also the possibilities. So if you really have learned the possibilites and importance of for example orange free market and individualism, how can you then become a complete late stage green and throw those lessons away?

This is the conflicting idea with Spiral Dynamics, If you truly went through the previous stage you remember your lessons and there is no need to go deep into the current stage.
And if you follow that reasoning it disable the entire structure of Spiral dynamics as you might not have learned your lessons from previous stage because you didnt learn the lessons from the previous stage to that previous stage. I like the whole Idea of Spiral dynamcs and there is alot of useful ideas but I see the reality as much more fluid than this rigid, boxed in model of thinking

Again, this is just my personal reflection of spiral dynamics when it comes to me.

Edited July 6, 2018 by luckieluuke

[luckieluuke]

@Etagnwo Thanks, nice to know I'm not alone  Somehow I just can´t help myself. My brain just get´s so triggered by models, they are so much fun and sometimes helpful but also sooo dangerous. Like playing with fire ;-)