On Free Will

[Angelo John Gage]

I know that many of you here, or all of you here, believe that there is no free will. This is one subject I tend to disagree with the teachings here completely. The argument is if we remove the 'self' there is nothing but the Absolute Infinity and free will is just an illusion; since we ourselves are an illusion. But I don't believe this to be.

If the Absolute Infinity contains ALL possibilities, then free will and non-free will must both exist in it. So of course, when you trip on DMT, your ego is stripped of you and now you seem to have no will at all as you're flying along out of your control and are at the mercy of your trip. Yet, there are times in trips where you choose to explore your trip even without your ego intact.

But when we return back into the Matrix; back into the world of the ego, we seem to have free will, or at least it does. 

Now here's why I believe we do:

Although we do not have any control of our thoughts as they come in; we do have the ability to silence them, change them, ignore them; as they are input from the external world, ideas that come in an out, past experiences, and so fourth. So not only do we have the abilities I stated in the former sentence, we ALSO have the ability to NOT act upon these thoughts. In other words, our free will is to NOT do something we are compelled or urged to do in our human form; which is why I believe free will is divine.

An example would be: Why is it that if I had a thought of driving someone off the road for cutting me off, I had somehow "decided" not to do that? If I had no free will, and my chemistry got fired up with anger enough to think about driving someone off the road, why didn't I do it? You can say consequences of going to jail or whatever else, yet there are people who do choose to do it regardless of consequences and kill people. Are we supposed to believe that since the beginning of the universe, this person was meant to kill that other person with their car?

I look at free will like a poker game: You have no control over the cards you are dealt, but you do have control of how you play those cards, regardless how shitty those cards may be or how great they may be.

In this way, both determinism and free will exist simultaneously because I cannot play a certain hand if I do not get dealt the exact cards to play that hand; however, I can bluff and PRETEND I have that hand and convince everyone else I do, until they fold. Or, I can fold my hand knowing that I have a weak hand, and decide not to bluff.

So in other words, I believe our "will" is constrained to choose within certain scenarios; so it is not totally free, but 50% free; which is why our decisions are ultimately either yes or no.

Furthermore, I believe that we have the ability to negate impulses; such as wanting to drive someone off the road. Also, if there is no free will at all, how can anyone decide to change their minds on anything?

There have been experiments claiming to have proven we do not have free will by showing we have brain activity already selecting the course of actions we end up taking, but these experiments do not actually prove we don't.

Ultimately no one knows, but to simply say " we have no free will because we trip" is to say " we have no lungs" because the kind of trips I went on, I had no body at all lol.

I find this article interesting if you care to read it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/consciousness-self-organization-and-neuroscience/201612/does-free-will-exist

[AnTe]

ultimately we don't but we do have free will.  what this means is the outcome/objective is predetermined but we choose how to experience it.

[Angelo John Gage]

@AnTe So we are put here in this hallographic video game  called life; which none of us chose to be here...but we can chose how to play the game...or are you saying; things happen to us, and we only have the "free will" to SEE them from different perspectives? So we cannot chose the scene, but we can choose how to interpret the scene, like art?

[Faceless]

Are we put here? 

Do things happen to us? 

And what are we? 

[AnTe]

yes but ultimately chose and control everything about our experience.  it's just that it wouldn't be much of an experience much less physical experience if we knew all the inner workings. 

[Angelo John Gage]

@Faceless Are we put here = Yes we were born into this matrix in human form. None of us were asked to be here while floating in celestial bodies ( or maybe we dont' remember lol)

Do things happen to us? Yes. 

And what are we? Well, apparently we are God, or infinite fractal of God... now if this is the case, then I must ask you: Do you believe God does not have free will?

Edited December 23, 2017 by Angelo John Gage

[Highest]

Maybe it cannot be known... It's just speculation, just talking. But how to really know, that's the question.

[Angelo John Gage]

@Highest Well even most adamant Natural Reductionist Materialist will say its virtually impossible to trace all cause and effects from the beginning of time (if it were controlled by physics) that it's basically as if we really do have free will as it is ultimately distinguishable.

[AnTe]

experience and self reflection then comparing notes.  look for patterns and similarities rather than differences and you're bound to find some truth and answers.

[Highest]

@Angelo John Gage Most things in this world are not known, everything from free will to materialism. It's all mental masturbation, none of it is actually real. So the best is to say I don't know. I don't know is the best position, it's the purest. This I know; I and you exist, and God exist because of my direct experiences, that's all. The rest is nothing, it doesn't exist for me, or it exists ONLY in the mind. 

[Faceless]

@Angelo John Gage??

 We come out of this earth. These are organisms grown here. The me is a product of a material process in the brain. Being put somewhere implies a putter. We are action. We are the action and the doing. We are thought. Or a fragment of that thought that attributes to “itself” thoughts. And this “we are god,infinity”, is a projected attempt to capture the whole which is sepecualation, and obviously thought at work. Thought can never grasp the whole, thought is fragmented. And I don’t even like to use the word god personaly. Lol 

Does this belief in free will have somthing to do with your personal conditioning? I think I saw that you were Catholic at some point. That might have somthing to do with this disposition. 

[Faceless]

This who we are is observable through self inquiry. No need to read anything or isn’t the influence of external information. Just self inquiry. Try that friend ?? 

[AleksM]

@Angelo John Gage

The non-physical aspect of you is making decisions. All that is in the universe is making decisions trough your body/mind. When you identify with the mind it's like ... a thought arises, then you follow the thought and if identified with ego an assumption forms that you are doing something. That you that you identify with is just another thought.

BTW check this thread:

 

[Angelo John Gage]

@Faceless Sure I was long ago, until the age of 23, but I am 33 now so it doesn't anymore. The false religions of man use free will to enslave people to not "sin" which is bullshit. But there are some that believe there is no free will and God does everything.

Why I believe in my version of " free will " is because I make decisions daily and I see no reason why for them to be illusions or fake. It is simply an assumption on both parts that it is either existent or nonexistent.  If you were told nothing about the idea of no free will, why would you just randomly believe you dont have it when we SEEM to exercise it daily.

[Faceless]

Is “your” thought yours or just thought? Do you make decisions or are the decisions you make determined by your conditioning? 

[Angelo John Gage]

@Faceless My experience that I am able to control my body the way I want to shows me there is no reason to believe anything external is controlling me.

The fact that I may be able to notice thoughts, but also either choose to identify with them or not, proves to me, there is free will. So when one says, meditate; that is a decision to not identity with thoughts. So who chose that? Must be me.

[Faceless]

Are u sure... might want inquire into my last post and get back to me. If you want to of course?

[AnTe]

@Faceless, decisions are made based on conditioning but we can choose to recondition ourselves like many of us here have. 

[Faceless]

Why would one recondition? lol 

a conditioned mind is never free 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Faceless

[Angelo John Gage]

@Faceless you can "condition" yourself to be more open-minded, for example.. Condition is just a term to mean training... You can "train" yourself to better meditate.