Martin Ball says physical reality is real

[Leo Gura]

@Carl-Richard But Martin clearly said that he believes in a distinction between dreams and the physical world.

We did not strawman him.

[Jirh]

53 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It’s a “hard problem “ for the materialist ,who assumes that the base reality is dumb matter , then he has to contend with how unconscious matter gives rise to conscious experience. 
but it’s not a hard problem at all for the idealist , and the mystic ,who knows that consciousness is base reality and not an epiphenomena . 

I'd be careful here. It's a hard problem for anyone who wants to arrive at truth.

I underlined and bolded two verbs in your comment.

What is the difference between knowing and assuming?

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Jirh said:

I'd be careful here. It's a hard problem for anyone who wants to arrive at truth.

I underlined and bolded two verbs in your comment.

What is the difference between knowing and assuming?

Thank you . 
I’m happy to explain . The materialist assumes that absolute base reality is fundamentally unconscious matter and energy . And then through some leap ,consciousness arises as an epiphenomena . Assumes  is the word because it is speculation . Not certain .

the awakened one knows  that consciousness is absolute base reality .  Because it is self-evident: it’s literally what’s absolutely true in your experience right now . 
You might ask : but where did consciousness come from ?  That question has a simple answer . Any questions and answers about consciousness would be an arising thoughts within consciousness. Therefore cannot encapsulate or explain consciousness because they ARE the very consciousness they try to explain .

So consciousness doesn’t have any explanation. Its absolute base reality and can’t be reduced to anything more fundamental.

[Jirh]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

the awakened one knows that consciousness is absolute base reality . Because it is self-evident: it’s literally what’s absolutely true in your experience right now .

I'm not so sure about this. I think it could be just as much assumption as the materialist position.

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Jirh said:

I'm not so sure about this. I think it could be just as much assumption as the materialist position.

You are conscious of your uncertainty about consciousness.

[Jirh]

Just now, Someone here said:

You are conscious of your uncertainty about consciousness.

Yes, there is an awareness of the uncertainty. So what?

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Jirh said:

So what?

That means awareness cannot be doubted for real . You can doubt it in theory ,verbally ,by saying the words “maybe awareness doesn’t exist “. But you can’t remove awareness experientially.

[Jirh]

Just now, Someone here said:

That means awareness cannot be doubted for real . You can doubt it in theory ,verbally ,by saying the words “maybe awareness doesn’t exist “. But you can’t remove awareness experientially.

But it can be doubted for real. For example, I can doubt your claim to a private conscious experience, just as much as you can doubt mine. Then we need to distinguish between consciousness as a thing (external reality) and being conscious (private experience). Then we're back at the hard problem of consciousness.

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Jirh said:

But it can be doubted for real. For example, I can doubt your claim to a private conscious experience, just as much as you can doubt mine. Then we need to distinguish between consciousness as a thing (external reality) and being conscious (private experience). Then we're back at the hard problem of consciousness.

You’re mixing two things:

- no , consciousness can never be doubted for real . Because doubt itself is consciousness.

- the solipsism vs realism question. Is a separate thing.

[Jirh]

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

- no , consciousness can never be doubted for real . Because doubt itself is consciousness.

I actually illustrated how it can be doubted.

But I understand that you mean it can't be doubted from the inside out. The knife can't cut itself. But that doesn't mean it can't cut other objects, including knives. Consciousness can doubt consciousness from the outside in, which means it can doubt itself using thoughts.

Quote

- the solipsism vs realism question. Is a separate thing.

They are closely related to the hard problem of consciousness.

Edited 9 hours ago by Jirh

[Loveeee]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Carl-Richard But Martin clearly said that he believes in a distinction between dreams and the physical world.

We did not strawman him.

And there's more like at 45:15 he says there are objects behind our perceptions IRL unlike dreams 

Edited 9 hours ago by Loveeee

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

no , consciousness can never be doubted for real . Because doubt itself is consciousness

Consciousness is just a form. Same than a stone. For you consciousness is a big thing because you are conscious, but reality is not consciousness, is where consciousness is a possibility. If you want I could explain it, but I doubt that anyone have the mind open enough to understand what Is obvious 

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Consciousness is just a form. Same than a stone. For you consciousness is a big thing because you are conscious, but reality is not consciousness, is where consciousness is a possibility. If you want I could explain it, but I doubt that anyone have the mind open enough to understand what Is obvious 

Why not . Explain . I’m all ears . And I will engage you in good faith . 

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Consciousness is just a form. Same than a stone.

No.

You are mistaken.

Consciousness is not just another form.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Why not . Explain . I’m all ears . And I will engage you in good faith . 

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

 

Consciousness is simply reality organized in a specific way. As you may have observed, reality is organized into interconnected, coherent patterns. For example, if you observe a stone down to its basic structure, at the quantum level, you will find coherent patterns upon coherent patterns, dynamically synchronized, always in motion, in constant change.

Life is simply one more phase of that web of possibilities in which reality self-organizes into a pattern that actively self-preserves. Willpower appears; the pattern wants to be. This happens simply because the pattern that perpetuates itself is the one with this characteristic. After quintillions of possible patterns, this one, the one that self-preserves, remains.

Evolution begins, and within it, patterns of sufficient complexity appear to develop what we call the mind: a dynamic, stable pattern that creates a model of the information exchange between the organism that wants to persist and the external universe. That interface model is simply reality in a complex, organized pattern, the exact same as a molecule, a star, a galaxy. A possible pattern among the limitless possibilities of reality's inevitable movement.

Well, within that pattern, reality becomes conscious of itself, observing itself. For instance, in a star, reality builds itself; in an atom, it organizes itself, to give a few examples.

Reality does not do this because it wants to, but because it can. Reality can do anything, since it has no limits, and it wants nothing, since "wanting" is just a possibility within reality, much like consciousness.

Seriously, if you truly want to open yourself up to what you really are, you must transcend the idea that reality is consciousness. Reality implies the possibility of being conscious, and you are now the eye of reality, or the reality expressed as an eye. If you really want to open yourself to the unlimited you must abandon the unconscious idea that the unlimited is an entity. You have to erase yourself, then the absolute will open in you, because you are that. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

No.

You are mistaken.

Consciousness is not just another form.

Why not? Then consciousness is the foundation of reality? How? Consciousness always needs forms, without any form there is no consciousness. Infinite consciousness is unconsciousness. Imagine no form and no time. No, you can't imagine it, because it's the no form. no consciousness could be without process, registration and duality 

Edited 3 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why not? Then consciousness is the foundation of reality? How? Consciousness always needs forms, without any form there is no consciousness. Infinite consciousness is unconsciousness. Imagine no form and no time. No, you can't imagine it, because it's the no form. no consciousness could be without process, registration and duality 

Consciousness is not a thing at all.

Consciousness is Truth itself.

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness is not a thing at all.

Consciousness is Truth itself.

How? What is consciusness without memory? Imagine that your memory is zero. There is no change, no registration. What consciousness would be that? Nothing. Then the truth itself needs registration of change? That's not fundamental. 

Btw, what is the truth? Is there any falsehood? There is only the reality. The difference being a human that is conscious is in the degrees of closure, but reality is the same if I'm open to it or not. 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

How? What is consciusness without memory?

Btw, what is the truth?

You are not going to understand that without Awakening.

You need to be intelligent enough to realize that your logic is not sufficient to solve the question of Consciousness & Truth.

Consciousness is not a physical thing, it is an ontological thing.

[Jirh]

I doubt awakening. I think it could be a limitation in ability rather than an arrival at a final absolute truth.

Using consciousness to make claims about truth is fallible, because it's self-biased. We need something outside of consciousness to make such claims. But we are limited to consciousness, so we cannot know anything outside of it. But it would be wrong to assume that limitation to be a feature. I think it's a bug.