the damage rapist do to society

[Olaf]

I never posted here before, but I thought it would belong to this section.

I have been talking to woman and sometimes I ask them to tell them something they told no one before. And I get really messed up things. And of course I won't mention names, but it is more common then not. That I had woman open up about rape. I had even a girl where her uncle raped her when she was like 10 or something.

Crazy to think these things are happening and that people have to walk with that pain for the rest of their lives. Also it makes me realise how much in the middle ages we live that these things are happening far too often. Not to mention how a woman comes healthy out of that, how does she even deal with all of that? The shame etc?

That is actually one of the biggest thing, the ability to heal that, because to me it sounds almost impossible to heal from it. I don't want to destroy hope, but like the damage these rapist do is permanent on these woman and will leave them traumatised maybe even for the rest of their lives.

Anyways I had to share this somewhere, cause it shocked me a bit after these woman opened up and told me these things.

Edited yesterday at 12:31 AM by Olaf

[Olaf]

@Joshe I changed it, thanks

[Joseph Maynor]

I've had a lot of communications with persons male and female who have been victims of sexual abuse.  

[trenton]

The damage rapists do is even worse than just to direct victims. 

Firstly, people have to fear being raped even if it doesn't happen to them. Secondly, family members become divided and destroyed over a family member who raped a child.

There are also problems with proof standards such as he said she said. Too often rapists get away with it which undermines faith in criminal justice. Even when you end up in prison there is still a lot of prison rape, not to mention juvenile sexual abuse in the justice system or even within a religious institution. Even if your child wasn't raped, it can cause a crisis of faith for a Catholic. You also have to worry about the two tiered justice system for those with money and power.

While it is definitely true that rapists cause a ton of harm to the direct victims, the true harm to society overall caused by rapists generally extends far beyond just the direct victims. It easily extends to those who have a relationship with the victim and throughout various institutions such as schools which now have to ban private lessons precisely because of this problem. There are even some cases of therapists sexually abusing people who go to therapy for being raped, if you are concerned about how to recover from such a thing.

Now add to that the harm caused by psychological warfare in the military such as mass public rapes to terrorize populations like in the Rape of Nanking. Militaries commonly use rape as a torture method while demonstrating impunity. The problem doesn't stay overseas. After everything soldiers have been through, including sexual abuse by their own military personnel, sometimes they come back home with untreated PTSD, resort to alcoholism, and go to commit more sexual assaults against people back in their own country. Rape overseas against our enemies doesn't stay with just our enemies and it does make it back to us if a soldier's head gets messed up so badly that now he develops a taste for children, leading veterans to position themselves in schools where they can access minors in private lessons.

Add to that child pornography which human traffickers profit from. Add to that the toxic masculine attitude of domination which rape reinforces. Add to that the suicide rates exacerbated by child sexual abuse.

The list goes on and on. The point is that while the harm to direct victims is severe, it is by no means anywhere near the end of it when discussing how rapists harm society overall.

[trenton]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I've had a lot of communications with persons male and female who have been victims of sexual abuse.  

I have as well. Part of the problem is that the definition is inconsistent, so men in particular struggle with it. Sometimes sexual abuse is defined broadly, but other times narrowly.

[Ulax]

Good post.

I used to be a big therapy advocate and thought about devoting my career to it.

However, through my own experiences and reading about many who have suffered atrocities at hands of stage-red. I now think prevention and economics are much more important to focus on. And also that most therapists are too incompetent to help people with ptsd or cptsd.

Such diagnoses often torment people, and then they also understandably struggle to meet the demands of society. Then society turns against them for that too. And a life of pain and revictimisation often occurs.

I don't like speaking about this because I don't want to demoralise people. (And that said, there are many who also manage to live empowered, and great lives after such diagnoses). But if i speak candidly it is a cruel life for many who are victimised in this way.

-----

Two more things I will also add about stage red.

Firstly, these people are monsters who commit these atrocities. But we all have that monster inside of us. As do we have the angel inside of us. Perhaps that monster is very controlled because we have not given into bitterness, or because we have not had reason to consider the bitter path. 

Consequently, even if we are just doing okay in life then that is a reason to be proud of ourselves. Or to be proud of another. Because doing ok is 1000x better than giving into the evil spirit we are all capable of giving into. 

Secondly, it is also a very good reason to not let our tragedies corrupt us. Giving into stage-red is a step-by-step game. You are at first polite and good-natured. Then bad things happen, and you start being rude a little. Thinking people are rude to me, i will be rude to everyone. Screw it. Then bad things happen more, and you start to have revenge on people. "Screw being civilised, I will make them pay. And screw the bystanders, I will make them pay to".  More, and your revenge gets more severe "No one cares about me. This world is wretched. All our wretched. I will punish them all". And gradually it escalates into darker and darker fantasies, and giving into the darkest temptations of the soul. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I have never been sexually abused or raped.

This is received as a surprise and shock to every women I have ever met  

Between women it is spoken of with more openness. Not one women I know has avoided sexual abuse of some type (my mother, my sister, my grandmother & cousins included). I would approximate a quarter of these women were raped by someone they knew. This is just my own anecdote as people I meet and speak with are generally more comfortable being open and vulnerable when I speak to them one on one. Sometimes I cannot hold space emotionally for the stories.

It's not good. It breaks my heart. These women mostly walked away thinking it was their fault. Internalised shame. None of them reported anything. Victims end up going through life in various states of disrepair.

It also makes me realise how blessed I have been.

Edited 23 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[trenton]

@Ulax 

5 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Good post.

I used to be a big therapy advocate and thought about devoting my career to it.

However, through my own experiences and reading about many who have suffered atrocities at hands of stage-red. I now think prevention and economics are much more important to focus on. And also that most therapists are too incompetent to help people with ptsd or cptsd.

Such diagnoses often torment people, and then they also understandably struggle to meet the demands of society. Then society turns against them for that too. And a life of pain and revictimisation often occurs.

This is how I feel. People on this forum recommend therapy constantly, but I have seen the failures first hand way to many times. They suck. They should not be qualified to test me at all. 

I can't access a therapist for childhood sexual abuse. I can't access a therapist for autism. I end up getting therapists who insist that I pray to Jesus and say how dare I try to control the future. Literally, this is why I use AI for therapy instead of a human. AI is objectively better at therapy than a human. They think they know better because they have a college degree, but really they are not trained for abuse. They are trained for patient symptoms. My anxiety is treated like it's the problem because I don't trust my family enough and need to spend more time with them. They sent me back to my family when I tried to get away from them in Florida. They said they would help me leave and they didn't.

Add to that psychiatry and all the bullshit that goes into diagnosing a patient. I was diagnosed with all kinds of things including bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. They are not trained for autism, so my diagnosis is all over the damn place. I then get pills that make my depression worse, leading to hospitalizations, leading to educational disruptions and job loss. Psychiatrists think they can diagnose a patient within 15 minutes by siting studies that simply do not apply in they context they use them. They completely misrepresent those studies routinely. They think they are rational, but they are stripping the context and applying the conclusions in ways they shouldn't be applied. They are more confident than they should be. PHD in medicine doesn't mean shit.

Now people think I'm annoying because I talk about my problems on forums like these instead. I don't trust my family because of what they did to me, and therapy sucks. AI is better, and I need a path forward in life. I feel like personal development just doesn't speak to what I actually need in this situation. I don't know who else to speak with if not a chat bot who tells me to call 988 routinely.

[Ulax]

17 minutes ago, trenton said:

@Ulax 

This is how I feel. People on this forum recommend therapy constantly, but I have seen the failures first hand way to many times. They suck. They should not be qualified to test me at all. 

I can't access a therapist for childhood sexual abuse. I can't access a therapist for autism. I end up getting therapists who insist that I pray to Jesus and say how dare I try to control the future. Literally, this is why I use AI for therapy instead of a human. AI is objectively better at therapy than a human. They think they know better because they have a college degree, but really they are not trained for abuse. They are trained for patient symptoms. My anxiety is treated like it's the problem because I don't trust my family enough and need to spend more time with them. They sent me back to my family when I tried to get away from them in Florida. They said they would help me leave and they didn't.

Add to that psychiatry and all the bullshit that goes into diagnosing a patient. I was diagnosed with all kinds of things including bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. They are not trained for autism, so my diagnosis is all over the damn place. I then get pills that make my depression worse, leading to hospitalizations, leading to educational disruptions and job loss. Psychiatrists think they can diagnose a patient within 15 minutes by siting studies that simply do not apply in they context they use them. They completely misrepresent those studies routinely. They think they are rational, but they are stripping the context and applying the conclusions in ways they shouldn't be applied. They are more confident than they should be. PHD in medicine doesn't mean shit.

Now people think I'm annoying because I talk about my problems on forums like these instead. I don't trust my family because of what they did to me, and therapy sucks. AI is better, and I need a path forward in life. I feel like personal development just doesn't speak to what I actually need in this situation. I don't know who else to speak with if not a chat bot who tells me to call 988 routinely.

Yeah I totally get what you're saying man. Lots of incompetence. 

Therapy has sort of become the secular recommendation "Pray to God". And then when therapy doesn't work you are said to have "not been doing the process properly". Which is really mostly a way of deflecting all criticism, and taking on toxic cultural attitudes of personal responsibility unconciously. Plus many therapists don't take evil/ stage-red seriously. I call them cotton-candy therapists.

The only therapists I really like online are Patrick Teahan, and Dr Ramani. They actually take stage-red seriously.

Richard Schwartz I like too for IFS therapy. But i found many therapists don't really commit to the IFS model in practice.

Also Jordan Peterson too.

Edited 23 hours ago by Ulax

[Olaf]

32 minutes ago, trenton said:

@Ulax 

This is how I feel. People on this forum recommend therapy constantly, but I have seen the failures first hand way to many times. They suck. They should not be qualified to test me at all. 

I can't access a therapist for childhood sexual abuse. I can't access a therapist for autism. I end up getting therapists who insist that I pray to Jesus and say how dare I try to control the future. Literally, this is why I use AI for therapy instead of a human. AI is objectively better at therapy than a human. They think they know better because they have a college degree, but really they are not trained for abuse. They are trained for patient symptoms. My anxiety is treated like it's the problem because I don't trust my family enough and need to spend more time with them. They sent me back to my family when I tried to get away from them in Florida. They said they would help me leave and they didn't.

Add to that psychiatry and all the bullshit that goes into diagnosing a patient. I was diagnosed with all kinds of things including bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. They are not trained for autism, so my diagnosis is all over the damn place. I then get pills that make my depression worse, leading to hospitalizations, leading to educational disruptions and job loss. Psychiatrists think they can diagnose a patient within 15 minutes by siting studies that simply do not apply in they context they use them. They completely misrepresent those studies routinely. They think they are rational, but they are stripping the context and applying the conclusions in ways they shouldn't be applied. They are more confident than they should be. PHD in medicine doesn't mean shit.

Now people think I'm annoying because I talk about my problems on forums like these instead. I don't trust my family because of what they did to me, and therapy sucks. AI is better, and I need a path forward in life. I feel like personal development just doesn't speak to what I actually need in this situation. I don't know who else to speak with if not a chat bot who tells me to call 988 routinely.

this is very much true, my friend from lower school killed himself, he had bipolar and I believe much of it had to do with the psychiatric help that was lacking. Humans are not advanced to the level yet to help people with serious mental health disorders. We can fix simple anxieties, simple depressions, but very core traumatic stuff like rape, like bipolar etc. Humans are only scratching the surface of fixing these issues, anyone can sit on a chair and diagnose, but no one can actually solve these issues.

My father works in the psychiatry and it is mostly just giving his patients medicines, rarely does someone actually heal. Hopefully humanity can fix these things in the next 1000 years, aswell as remove the causes of these mental illneses. It is only logical that people get mental illness in a society that is full of fear, pressure, anxiety and lacks consciousness and love.

If we would live in a more conscious society naturally these things would be less, as we would hold space for eachother and be more empathetic. 

Edited 23 hours ago by Olaf

[Olaf]

@Natasha Tori Maru probably that is also the reason why you are conscious or more conscious then many woman as they are dealing with the trauma from what happend. 

[trenton]

@Natasha Tori Maru When speaking of sexual abuse, I notice that women tend to use the broader definition which includes sexualized psychological abuse. It doesn't have to be a physical assault. It could include sexual harassment among anything sexualized across an entire spectrum with rape being at the most extreme end of the spectrum of sexual abuse.

From this point of view, women probably would be surprised that you were never sexually abused in anyway through your entire life. For example, in public schools sexual harassment is extremely common among minors. There is constantly inappropriate touching among other problems which I experienced in school. It is statistically unlikely for a girl to not face sexual assault at least one time before graduating. Therefore, women would be surprised if you said you never experienced that. I experienced that multiple times as a male from both male and female peers. Of course, in this setting it does not commonly get to the extreme of rape, but when it does it is an outrage.

The problem I encounter is that some clinicians and mental health institutions use different definitions of sexual abuse. Some of them define rape as first degree sexual assault, but state it as "sexual assault" even though in some jurisdictions this is just inappropriate touching but not penetration. Likewise, childhood sexual abuse is sometimes defined narrowly to include only rape by some practitioners, not to mention the conflicting legal standards on top of all of this.

The inconsistent definitions are really confusing because some institutions say it certain events were sexual abuse and others say they weren't. The outcome is that I get recommended inconsistent treatment plans which adds to my confusion rather than helping me recover.

I feel it relevant to explain one experience as an example to show the problems the mental health system caused me.

There was an incident from early childhood when I was six. I for some reason had a dream in which my Uncle molested me. I don't remember it actually happening nor do I know why I had such a vivid dream of this happening. During this time, I had family members such as my mothers and sisters who would get naked in the living room, but I don't know how common this is. My mother and grandfather would also look at pornographic material which I was exposed to, but did not understand why I would want to have sex or what the goal is. All of this was combined with daycare shaming any sexual content while the kids routinely discussed private parts anyway as they told me about masturbation for pleasure, the importance of asking for permission before putting my penis in a woman's vagina, and how to terrorize girls by telling them that you violated them while they were asleep. This was all very confusing with my mother and sisters discussing such subjects at the kitchen table as well despite my objections. Meanwhile, the teacher would punish me if I asked questions about any of this. None of this was explained to me and my father was absent due to being preoccupied with his gang.

One night when I was six, I repeated the behavior I was exposed with my four year old sister through sexualized play which involved inappropriate touching. Once my mother discovered this, she equated it to rape, leading to jail threats. She didn't explain these things very well, but I have become conflicted about my sexuality as a consequence. This might be called "sexual identity abuse" as a subcategory of sexual abuse. It includes the apparent preference for my gayness when really I was attracted to girls, but thought that no girl would ever love me if I were a rapist. Therefore, I focused on intellectual goals instead to compensate for my lack of relational support. This included focusing on things like chess instead where I could develop competence. I also looked for life purpose such as altruism as it might justify my existence well enough to keep me alive rather than suicidal.

Along with this I had half the family wanting me to be gay, and the other half throwing the Bible at me as if I had already sinned. They were going off of stereotypes and it was stupid on so many levels. The problem with rapists in this case is that after all of this I "didn't have that bad" because by comparison those who were raped had it worse, therefore causing such suffering to go unrecognized and severely underestimated. The invisibility caused by not fitting the typical cultural script is its own pain. These experiences don't fit our cultural categories cleanly at all.

Later on there was the trafficking incident with my father still. The problem in that case is that "trafficking" doesn't have a consistent definition either. Some experts say I am a trafficking survivor and others say I am not. There is a legal grey area and real problems with how our data is defined and evaluated on an aggregate scale. Likewise, rape doesn't have a consistent definition either. Statutory rape would be the most obvious example with some jurisdictions saying that my father statutorily raped my mother when she was a teenager and with others saying no in my particular jurisdiction. I can't tell if I were trafficked or not if not even the experts agree on how to define these things.

Given the broader definition of sexual abuse, I would be surprised if you never experienced that. If you never experienced rape, then that would be much less surprising. In my case, therapists can't agree on whether or not I was sexually abused. It looks more like sexualized psychological warfare like what those boys were doing to girls during naptime at daycare which I wanted no part of. My sister was terrified and needed mom to reassure that she was safe at daycare.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@trenton I make a distinction between sexual harassment and sexual assault/rape/abuse.

Most women speak from the frame of sexual assault/rape/abuse inferring a physical transgression has transpired. Sexual harassment is more the verbal transgressions and objectification. I do understand there is overlap in interpretation, though. Especially in more clinical circles.

I have never experienced any sexual physical violation - only extensive violence/assault. Being beaten, hit and thrown around has a different effect to being sexually violated from what I can tell. I am lucky to have only experienced physical assault.

I have experienced verbal sexual harassment. I have a way about me that really shuts men down quickly when I do not welcome it. Mostly this is in my professional life, from hardened construction workers. I don't let it effect me, although I know for many women - it does.