is Redpill holding me back

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Olaf said:

@Emerald but if Justin Bieber came in the room most girls would do him, how do you make sense of that? 

I just asked 3 girlfriends on my weekly lunch catchup. Then my grandmother, mum and sister. For shits and giggles I also asked my dad's partner who works downstairs. I did some recon!

Not one of them would sleep with Justin Bieber. All of them commented on him looking like a crack head these days and "only a small amount of women are full groupie mode" was the consensus. Even when he was younger - no go.

[Jirh]

3 hours ago, Olaf said:

@Emerald but if Justin Bieber came in the room most girls would do him, how do you make sense of that? 

You picked the most feminine male singer 😅

I think Drake or Idris Elba are way more attractive.

But for the women on the forum, I think Enrique Iglesias is among the most attractive. He has a nice blend of masculine and feminine.

Edited 4 hours ago by Jirh

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I just asked 3 girlfriends on my weekly lunch catchup. Then my grandmother, mum and sister. For shits and giggles I also asked my dad's partner who works downstairs. I did some recon!

Not one of them would sleep with Justin Bieber. All of them commented on him looking like a crack head these days and "only a small amount of women are full groupie mode" was the consensus. Even when he was younger - no go.

Most women say they wouldn’t have a one night stand or sleep with a guy on the first date, yet survey data finds a third to half say they have, and that’s with normal guys not celebrities.

Edited 4 hours ago by Raze

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Raze So the claim was that most women would have sex with Justin Bieber.

Let say thats 51% 

Between my mum (60) and my grandmother (97) - do you think either of them would?

Just pointing out how crazy/poking fun at the example,  given no additional demographics or information 

Edited 4 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Raze]

I can’t speak for individuals. Obviously if a woman is a lesbian or doesn’t have a sex drive that’s different for example.

But according to survey data like 20% of women say they’ve cheated on their partner. I’m sure if you asked all those women before they did it, almost all would say they wouldn’t cheat, yet they did. And those are with regular guys. So I don’t think it’s so crazy to think if it’s a celebrity which has all the pull of fame and charisma and we are now including women who aren’t in a relationship, that number could be 60-90% tbh.

Of course it also depends on the circumstance, like if he just randomly appeared and was super aggressive that would be so shocking it wouldn’t feel real and they’d probably default to a no. Like if a super hot girl suddenly tried to sleep with a guy who wasn’t used to it he’d be suspicious it was a scam.

Frankly I think most women would sleep with a celebrity even excluding factors like attractiveness, simply because of herd mentality because they have so much social proof and they’d just convince themselves to do it because they think everyone else would. 

Some women in nazi germany reported having orgasms when listening to Hitler give speeches, it’s not because he’s super attractive or they had some special connection. Probably a celebrity sex symbol living in the more liberal era today would have a even more magnified effect. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Raze

[Emerald]

30 minutes ago, Jirh said:

You picked the most feminine male singer 😅

I think Drake or Idris Elba are way more attractive.

But for the women on the forum, I think Enrique Iglesias is among the most attractive. He has a nice blend of masculine and feminine.

That's a bit random to assume the women on this forum would be attracted specifically to Enrique Iglesias.

He's a handsome guy... but not my type looks-wise.

But even if he were my type looks-wise, that doesn't do anything for me without any platonic intimacy built up.

Also, physically I don't find Drake attractive at all. And Idris Elba is a more handsome guy than Enriques Iglesias, by my taste.

But it doesn't matter if Idris Elba (or some other random attractive celebrity) came into the room and offered himself to me. I'd still be uninterested... because the feelings would be lukewarm and lacking in intimacy.

But maybe average Joe down the street who I've been interacting with platonically for months and built up small moments of intimacy with might be obsessively on my mind. And every time we interact and I feel the tug in my heart and all the built up un-acknowledged sexual tension, and I'm just wondering whether things will escalate now... or later... or never. And there is longing.

That's an accurate description to understand what attraction actually feels like for a woman. The "storyline" before the sex is VERY important for the sex to feel sufficiently meaningful and emotionally compelling.

Think about the kind of smut that women tend to enjoy. It's usually in writing and has a lot of character and storyline build-up before the characters become intimate. And it's about the specific relational dynamic between the characters.

Then, think about the kind of smut that men tend to enjoy. It's porn... and it's just visual and immediate. 

So, @Olaf's assumption is that women are operating in that visual and immediate way with handsome celebrity men... which is how many men operate with attractive women.

But that misunderstands where the actual deep levels of sexual and emotional satisfaction comes from for women... which is the consummation of feelings for desire for a specific man with a specific personality... not just to extract physical pleasure from an attractive male body.

[AION]

Most women would do a descent looking celeb just for her ego. That is why being a bad boy works. Because they bruise the woman's ego in some way and she wants to boost her ego. In the same way if you boost a woman's ego too much she won't sleep with you because she will think she is too good for you.

Edited 3 hours ago by AION

[Emerald]

39 minutes ago, Raze said:

Most women say they wouldn’t have a one night stand or sleep with a guy on the first date, yet survey data finds a third to half say they have, and that’s with normal guys not celebrities.

I have had one night stands before when I was in my early 20s. That's how I know that it's boring and emotionally un-satisfying... and doesn't give me any of the feelings that make me feel like bonding with a man.

So, I'm not even claiming that I've never done it. When I did back then, it was mostly because of loneliness after I had broken up with a longterm partner and having not-so-great boundaries.

I'm just saying that it isn't compelling or satisfying for me. And it isn't compelling or satisfying for most women who have done it either. And many women have never done it and never would do it.

And because I know that it's not satisfying, the scenario of Justin Bieber or whoever just coming up to me randomly and just being like "Hey, let's go to the bedroom" would just be random.

And I'd probably get just as annoyed at a celebrity guy for trying to immediately take me to bed as I would with any average guy immediately trying to take me to bed upon meeting me.

So, I'm quite sure that the majority of women would say no to a random out-of-nowhere sex offer from an attractive male celebrity... including women who occasionally go out clubbing and go home with some random guy they were dancing with that night.

It's the immediacy and lack of build up that kills it.

However, if we're thinking of a scenario where a woman meets Justin Bieber at a club. And they dance all night and they go for a walk after the club closes... and they're talking and joking back and forth. Then, I'd say probably somewhere between 1/3  and 1/2 of women would sleep with him that night.

But it's still not the majority of women. 

And the scenario that Olaf brought up was like a 'Justin Bieber walks into a room and wants to have sex with you upon meeting you.' and thinking most women would sleep with him just like that solely on the basis that he's an attractive celebrity.

I'd say that 10-15% of women probably would. But 85-90% would tell him to fuck off for opening with a proposition.

[Jirh]

@Emerald

Like I said earlier, I think you make a good point, but take it a bit too far.

What I agree with you on is that biology determines a lot or most of what someone might consider sexually attractive. The bar is typically higher for women because their sexuality is intertwined with safety and survival (pregnancy and maternity), so they select based on a wider and more strict criteria than just looks. We both agree on this.

What I disagree with, and think that you take it too far is the psychological part of attraction. And it's not that I think psychology is completely irrelevant. It's just that in most cases, I think it comes second to biology. Once biology has decided on a partner and the attachment has formed, psychology becomes a confirmation tool for that decision. And everything the woman says or does will be influenced by her bias towards her partner that her biology has chosen. This is obvious to me, because a woman's default is not ultra selective mode. It's more like moderately selective mode with caveats. And she only develops ultra selection as a conscious strategy after finding out that being moderately selective is not enough. So she has to consciously wake up to the reality that her biology alone is inefficient before she develops a better strategy like ultra selection. Women are not born awake to that fact. They have to learn it.

Besides, being ultra selective is not the same as being ultra specific. Selectivity implies options. Specificity doesn't care about present options, it's about an ideal, which is the myth I'm calling out.

It could be possible that in some cases, like when a woman has too many options, that she may have to be ultra selective, motivated by conscious necessity, not biological impulse. But most women aren't like that. Most women don't have that many options. They have a few, so sorting is often not an issue.

You gave plenty of metaphors and explanations about your original point, and I appreciate your patience and understanding, but I think I already quite understand it. It just doesn't make much sense based on the reality of dating and mating that I've seen so far.

Edited 1 hour ago by Jirh