Losing faith in the system

[Sugarcoat]

I mean, aren't the "spirit guides" also creations of reality? So I guess they can't help themselves either. Sorry to break it to you, but I don't think that "god" can end aspects of reality. Infinity just is, ig, so it cannot help itself but to produce infinite suffering. So yes, it will be medieval torture machine infinite amount of times for all of us, with breaks in between of eating ice cream or having sex or whatever, from the larger perspective. And then if you get enlightened, then you can "chill" because you have no sense of time so things will not seem this, but time is still "passing" somehow, so its all gonna happen to them too. If you think I'm negative then don't worry, thats just thoughts in your mind your're reacting to, you're safe for now, for this lifetime at least, the darkest corners of infinity haven't arrived for you yet, so you can keep abiding in the ignorance of what's to come. 

Edited Saturday at 09:48 PM by Sugarcoat

[Seraphim]

15 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I mean, aren't the "spirit guides" also creations of reality? So I guess they can't help themselves either. Sorry to break it to you, but I don't think that "god" can end aspects of reality. Infinity just is, ig, so it cannot help itself but to produce infinite suffering. So yes, it will be medieval torture machine infinite amount of times for all of us, with breaks in between of eating ice cream or having sex or whatever, from the larger perspective. And then if you get enlightened, then you can "chill" because you have no sense of time so things will not seem this, but time is still "passing" somehow, so its all gonna happen to them too. If you think I'm negative then don't worry, thats just thoughts in your mind your're reacting to, you're safe for now, for this lifetime at least, the darkest corners of infinity haven't arrived for you yet, so you can keep abiding in the ignorance of what's to come. 

Yea that's an interesting theory. I haven't really heard how new age teachers feel about that theory. I think they don't believe reality is that infinite, there's no need for it to be infinite in that way, and like you point out, it would be way too cruel. God could end all creation, but probably won't unless many high level beings begin to protest. 

You also have to keep in mind that the souls who are here in the trenches experiencing these things are the part of god that is the most brave and adventurous. The part of god that lacks that adventurous spirit is still safe in the source, just being and enjoying the oneness of god in the highest dimension. The new agers see god more like an ocean with many individual drops of water, instead of just one being, not everyone is suffering. 

[Willy Phallicus]

2 hours ago, Seraphim said:

It would be a shame if someone forced our middle path bastard higher selves to enter such hardships, where they have to face despair and the risk of total annihilation.

Pain and suffering is not without value. Its telling you something.  It may be a reminder that its possible to overcome all obstacles.  

It also suggests that while the matrix is an absolute shit show that doesn't portend that its architect is malicious or evil.

[Seraphim]

44 minutes ago, Willy Phallicus said:

Pain and suffering is not without value. Its telling you something.  It may be a reminder that its possible to overcome all obstacles.  

It also suggests that while the matrix is an absolute shit show that doesn't portend that its architect is malicious or evil.

Yes that's a good point. I don't think the system is evil. I think our spirit guides and higher selves loves us. What I'm worried about is the possibility of them being delusional. That maybe they are so high on non-duality bliss that they think suffering is nothing. You know some spiritual masters, like advanced non-duality teachers sometimes say "nothing has ever happened"? That's because the absolute makes it feel that way, seeing the truth has that effect, even the ugly parts of the world feels valuable and the absolute is the same perfect being. But the people and animals that suffer don't see the world that way.

[Wilhelm44]

11 hours ago, Seraphim said:

It's harsh for everyone, we're in the same boat. Though I'm sure you're enjoying your non-duality intellectual limbo period where you think that everything is simple and that you can handle anything because you're not identifying with the body. The problem is that you can't fool your spirit guides, if you're not pure enough and your body is restless, they're going to scheme against you. Only if you're absorbed, peaceful, pure, will they allow you to have a permanent honeymoon period. Am I wrong?

Life is as it is. I suggested that video of Leo's because it's really helpful in the sense that it gets us to see how must of what we believe is just fiction.

Getting grounded in direct experience is one of the best things you can do. 

Blessings.

Edited 16 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[Breakingthewall]

14 hours ago, Seraphim said:

the new age teachings, god originally didn't create anything, it just existed within itself. But then came a desire to know something more than itself, to forget who it is and then find itself again. Which led to creation. If we humans become enlightened, we create a new type of consciousness known as the christ consciousness, it can only be born in an environment like earth, where there's darkness and light and where people have forgotten that they are god.

That is impossible, if god is infinite, a desire to know something can't come because if would come infinitely and beef fulfilled infinitely, then that god would be psychotic. God is not an entity with desires, is the reality, and the reality is because it has not limits, and as it is, it happens 

[Olaf]

@Seraphim who said that life is fair or just? That is why I don't agree with most religions as the dogma they have that there is some justice to a person who has done good and been a "good boy", which is just a childish illusion. I think this whole notion of spirit guides, higher self etc. Is mainly a fantasy, if God is everything then a spirit guide wouldn't be God, more like some big alien. So don't think of it in these spiritual terms, don't think about life in a human way.

As a human we want justice and fairness, but that is just not the case, life just is and you have no say so if the world will be hit by some other planet and we will all die or not. This whole idea of justice is you being against what life is, life is unfair it is unjust and at the same time it can be fair, it just is. I even feel it is low intelligent to belief that life is fair, because if you look around for even a moment, talk to people for a few days, you will realise that life isn't bad, isn't good, it is just circumstantial, one person can live a great life another can suffer endlessly, but at the end everything just is and exist, like the entirity of what can exist, exists, that is existence and that is God, God is all the evil and all the good, all the murderers and all the saviors.

Everything else with spirit guides and higher self are just some aliens at most if not a complete fantasy and are more like a distraction from God and beingness then that they are of much help. To say it is unfair to let people be put through this, makes it sound like it is an option, existence just is, there is no option if it exists or not or all the things that exist in it.

Can you change the moon her place towards the other side of the galaxy, because you don't like it? No and neither can God, because things just are, God doesn't have some human personality, it is all of existence, it is very impersonal, I don't think you get how infinitely big God is, it is everything, every galaxy, everything that can ever exist, that is all God and it is all now and here being, existing. 

Edited 14 hours ago by Olaf

[Seraphim]

6 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Life is as it is. I suggested that video of Leo's because it's really helpful in the sense that it gets us to see how must of what we believe is just fiction.

Getting grounded in direct experience is one of the best things you can do. 

Blessings.

That would be helpful if my problem was unhappiness. But I'm dealing with an intellectual/philosophical question here, and it needs an intellectual answer. My knowledge feels like a memory, it was awakened in me after I studied some of the new age teachings, is how it feels, so to stop believing in it I would need some good arguments. Your teachers may act like they don't have any beliefs and that they are not the body, but in their daily life they have many beliefs that they act on, including in a sense the belief that they are the body.

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is impossible, if god is infinite, a desire to know something can't come because if would come infinitely and beef fulfilled infinitely, then that god would be psychotic. God is not an entity with desires, is the reality, and the reality is because it has not limits, and as it is, it happens 

So you know that god is infinite, and you know exactly what being infinite means for an infinite being? And this is based on an experience you got from psychedelics? I think you are wrong about it.

49 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Seraphim who said that life is fair or just? That is why I don't agree with most religions as the dogma they have that there is some justice to a person who has done good and been a "good boy", which is just a childish illusion. I think this whole notion of spirit guides, higher self etc. Is mainly a fantasy, if God is everything then a spirit guide wouldn't be God, more like some big alien. So don't think of it in these spiritual terms, don't think about life in a human way.

As a human we want justice and fairness, but that is just not the case, life just is and you have no say so if the world will be hit by some other planet and we will all die or not. This whole idea of justice is you being against what life is, life is unfair it is unjust and at the same time it can be fair, it just is. I even feel it is low intelligent to belief that life is fair, because if you look around for even a moment, talk to people for a few days, you will realise that life isn't bad, isn't good, it is just circumstantial, one person can live a great life another can suffer endlessly, but at the end everything just is and exist, like the entirity of what can exist, exists, that is existence and that is God, God is all the evil and all the good, all the murderers and all the saviors.

Everything else with spirit guides and higher self are just some aliens at most if not a complete fantasy and are more like a distraction from God and beingness then that they are of much help. To say it is unfair to let people be put through this, makes it sound like it is an option, existence just is, there is no option if it exists or not or all the things that exist in it.

Can you change the moon her place towards the other side of the galaxy, because you don't like it? No and neither can God, because things just are, God doesn't have some human personality, it is all of existence, it is very impersonal, I don't think you get how infinitely big God is, it is everything, every galaxy, everything that can ever exist, that is all God and it is all now and here being, existing. 

Yes we certainly have different beliefs. New agers believe that nothing is a coincidence, everything in our lives is planned/done by our higher selves and spirit guides to guide you towards enlightenment.

God does have a personality, but it's almost impossible for a human to access it and get to know it, don't expect your psychedelics to give you access, a spiritual teacher I know tried to channel god, she had to fast for many days and prepare but she only got access to an "outer layer" very close to god, I think it was called "the one", it had a very pure, innocent personality, it was curious about the humans it spoke with. 

I won't take on your beliefs, because they don't make sense to me. They feel like a chaotic attempt to understand the world by a frog in a well. We have limits, that's why we need information from beings in higher dimensions who see things from a larger perspective.

[Sugarcoat]

13 hours ago, Seraphim said:

Yea that's an interesting theory. I haven't really heard how new age teachers feel about that theory. I think they don't believe reality is that infinite, there's no need for it to be infinite in that way, and like you point out, it would be way too cruel. God could end all creation, but probably won't unless many high level beings begin to protest. 

You also have to keep in mind that the souls who are here in the trenches experiencing these things are the part of god that is the most brave and adventurous. The part of god that lacks that adventurous spirit is still safe in the source, just being and enjoying the oneness of god in the highest dimension. The new agers see god more like an ocean with many individual drops of water, instead of just one being, not everyone is suffering. 

Infinity makes sense, but yes I also am not sure if it would include everything I stated to that extent, but I do not believe there is possibility to end all creation, seems something more powerful than the totality would have to do that, which I don't believe could exist. Also I'm not so into this whole thing where people ascribe god characteristics, sounds to me like they're unsatisfied with the simple explanation or something. 

[Sugarcoat]

11 hours ago, Seraphim said:

 What I'm worried about is the possibility of them being delusional. That maybe they are so high on non-duality bliss that they think suffering is nothing. You know some spiritual masters, like advanced non-duality teachers sometimes say "nothing has ever happened"? That's because the absolute makes it feel that way, seeing the truth has that effect, even the ugly parts of the world feels valuable and the absolute is the same perfect being. But the people and animals that suffer don't see the world that way.

I can definitely relate to this. It got me thinking of, where are they in the worst case scenarios? When some torture victim encountered the perpetrator, why couldn't they have received some warning before, making them change paths and thus getting away. I question this thing people say "everyone has spirit guides", also the amount of influence they could have.....But yes, it can sound safe until its time to suffer for "the greater good" lol for WHOM???

The marked part lol, great wording

Edited 13 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Wilhelm44]

1 hour ago, Seraphim said:

But I'm dealing with an intellectual/philosophical question here, and it needs an intellectual answer.

When you finally decide to watch that video, you might just find that you don't need an intellectual answer.

(If you are convinced that you are right about the way things work, what good will an intellectual answer to the contrary do you anyway ? For example, when something unwanted happens, what actual proof do you have that it happened because you were being punished by some spirit guide. I'm not saying I am right either, but the belief in punishment seems like an unnecessary burden to carry, life is hard enough as it is.)

The belief in punishment might make sense if you were in control. Or if God had human characteristics.

But you don't even have the ability to decide what thought will arise next. Thoughts arise by themselves. As do apparent decisions to take action. You are not responsible. Believing you are responsible is arrogance of ego. 

Plus, our actions make no difference to God.

Edited 12 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[Willy Phallicus]

13 hours ago, Seraphim said:

That maybe they are so high on non-duality bliss that they think suffering is nothing. You know some spiritual masters, like advanced non-duality teachers sometimes say "nothing has ever happened"? That's because the absolute makes it feel that way, seeing the truth has that effect, even the ugly parts of the world feels valuable and the absolute is the same perfect being. But the people and animals that suffer don't see the world that way

The goal is not to spare yourself the horror or save yourself from the suffering, nor is it to be redeemed so as to return to perfect nirvanic bliss.  The goal is to make the suffering of existence productive.  To use it to give substance to the fluff that is you in order to forge your soul and liberate your spirit - so while the Pater (pattern/demiurgos) is cruel and tyrannical, it is not evil.  If its not evil then we owe it to ourselves to find out what the suffering is all about.

Being fucked is not without its value because some truths only emerge when you got nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

You can swim or you can sink into an eternal fucked up hell where all the intellectual pourquoi's rapidly devolve into tortured lamentations of WHY, WHY, WHY GOD IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME WHY, WHY, WHY ,WHY, WHY. The horror is the reason why, the existential terror is the reason why.  If there was no threat of hell I would have blown my fucking head off long ago.  On the other hand however, if something far larger and more grand than little ol human me decided that this clusterfuck should exist then maybe its not just an accidental absurdity.  Maybe its a gift given in good faith through good will by a living transcendence of pure freedom and infinitely exquisite and boundless joy that holds a promise too marvelous to be imagined and it might be worth sticking around to see it through.

 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Seraphim said:

So you know that god is infinite, and you know exactly what being infinite means for an infinite being? And this is based on an experience you got from psychedelics? I think you are wrong about it.

No, it's simply basic logic 

[Seraphim]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Infinity makes sense, but yes I also am not sure if it would include everything I stated to that extent, but I do not believe there is possibility to end all creation, seems something more powerful than the totality would have to do that, which I don't believe could exist. Also I'm not so into this whole thing where people ascribe god characteristics, sounds to me like they're unsatisfied with the simple explanation or something. 

Yea you could be right, since if we are inside a time-based-reality, the beings in the higher dimensions who live outside of time would always be able to access this reality and explore it. Once this was created, there is no un-creating it. Good, someone finally said something that my spirit guides would tell me. 

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I can definitely relate to this. It got me thinking of, where are they in the worst case scenarios? When some torture victim encountered the perpetrator, why couldn't they have received some warning before, making them change paths and thus getting away. I question this thing people say "everyone has spirit guides", also the amount of influence they could have.....But yes, it can sound safe until its time to suffer for "the greater good" lol for WHOM???

The marked part lol, great wording

They are there, but choosing to not help because the people involved in the event are allowed to use their free will, it's a co-creation, and they want the people to learn lessons. Everything is for our enlightenment, whether it's in this life or in future lives. That's how they see it, which is cold, but in their defense, our higher selves are right here with us, feeling all the pain we feel from our point of view.

3 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

When you finally decide to watch that video, you might just find that you don't need an intellectual answer.

(If you are convinced that you are right about the way things work, what good will an intellectual answer to the contrary do you anyway ? For example, when something unwanted happens, what actual proof do you have that it happened because you were being punished by some spirit guide. I'm not saying I am right either, but the belief in punishment seems like an unnecessary burden to carry, life is hard enough as it is.)

The belief in punishment might make sense if you were in control. Or if God had human characteristics.

But you don't even have the ability to decide what thought will arise next. Thoughts arise by themselves. As do apparent decisions to take action. You are not responsible. Believing you are responsible is arrogance of ego. 

Plus, our actions make no difference to God.

Well I'm still missing a lot of information, so my opinion on the system can still change. True, we don't seem to be able to choose our thoughts. And yes it's not the body that chooses what the body does, it's sentience/awareness. But that's still free will, and our actions matter, otherwise all of this would be pointless and wouldn't have been created.

1 hour ago, Willy Phallicus said:

The goal is not to spare yourself the horror or save yourself from the suffering, nor is it to be redeemed so as to return to perfect nirvanic bliss.  The goal is to make the suffering of existence productive.  To use it to give substance to the fluff that is you in order to forge your soul and liberate your spirit - so while the Pater (pattern/demiurgos) is cruel and tyrannical, it is not evil.  If its not evil then we owe it to ourselves to find out what the suffering is all about.

Being fucked is not without its value because some truths only emerge when you got nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

You can swim or you can sink into an eternal fucked up hell where all the intellectual pourquoi's rapidly devolve into tortured lamentations of WHY, WHY, WHY GOD IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME WHY, WHY, WHY ,WHY, WHY. The horror is the reason why, the existential terror is the reason why.  If there was no threat of hell I would have blown my fucking head off long ago.  On the other hand however, if something far larger and more grand than little ol human me decided that this clusterfuck should exist then maybe its not just an accidental absurdity.  Maybe its a gift given in good faith through good will by a living transcendence of pure freedom and infinitely exquisite and boundless joy that holds a promise too marvelous to be imagined and it might be worth sticking around to see it through.

Yes that's what the buddhists believe. A buddha is not afraid to keep incarnating here. About hell, the new agers believe that the only people who end up in hell are those who really believe in hell and who believe they deserve to go there, but it's not forever, it's just a temporary experience to learn from.

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, it's simply basic logic 

Is it from one of Leo's videos? Do you have a link to a website/article/video I can look at?

[Willy Phallicus]

9 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

A buddha is not afraid to keep incarnating here.

Well consciousness has got to mix it up to keep it interesting.  After enough eternity in heaven you descend back into the hell realms to remind yourself how good you have it in heaven.

[Wilhelm44]

58 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

And yes it's not the body that chooses what the body does, it's sentience/awareness. But that's still free will, and our actions matter, otherwise all of this would be pointless and wouldn't have been created.

Free will for the ego identity is an illusion. Decisions arise in awareness, but awareness is not making decisions as such. Your actions matter in the relative, not in the absolute. God is not petty. The idea of punishment is something the New Age adopted from the old testament in the bible. Yes actions have consequences, but it's not coming from a place of punishment. The idea of punishment is like adding an extra layer of suffering. Similarly you can drop guilt and shame for past actions. You are not responsible. You're not making anything happen. Based on your upbringing, belief systems, conditioning etc action happened as it did. The next thought you'll have was not wished for by you. Nothing here belongs to you. Even your most cherished dreams and desires just appeared one day out of nowhere.

[Joseph Maynor]

You created the system.