I want to hear a womans opinion

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

Luckily for us, women actually do care more about deep connection with an ordinary dude more than they do about shallow connection with Chad, even if Chad gets them easier and they're willing to put up with shallow connection for a time because he's attractive.

It's an interesting idea that pickup is an attempt to be an antidote not just for getting pussy, but to deal with the emotions of not being wanted the way Chad is wanted.

The funny thing is... the right average Joe with "emotional fermentation" time is WAY more intensely attractive than randomly sleeping with an attractive Chad fuck-boy type who's a natural with getting women to bed.

The former type of attraction has layers and layers of deeply beautiful heart-centered erotic feelings toward the specific guy. And the latter is just one-note excitement and stimulation.

And the former type of attraction is like a very complex, expensive, bitter-sweet dessert that you can only find in one very specific and very unique place (literally just that one person, and no one else). And like good wine, it has both pleasing and acquired tastes that evoke both pleasure and disgust in a very specific configuration.

In contrast, the latter isn't complex... It's just pure sugar sweetness, like cotton candy. And you can find the same brand of cotton candy everywhere... as it's popular, cheap, and easier to sell to a wider array of customers.

What I wish is that a man could just once experience what it feels like to be a woman and lust after and long for a very specific average Joe and to feel how amazing the feelings feel. 

Honestly, if you could turn that feeling into a drug... SOO many people would be addicted to it.

Then, compare that hyper-intense, complexly-erotic, intoxicating feeling-state to the very lukewarm and one-note feeling states of hooking up with Chad on a whim because the exciting mood struck and it was party time.

Those two levels of erotic feelings are nowhere near the same universe.

And that's why many women just aren't interested in hook-ups at all. The juice honestly isn't worth the squeeze. (In this case, the juice is the feeling state that hooking up with Chad evokes) 

Now, a nuance here is that the Chad guy is slept with because he has a cotton-candy exterior that women who are easily pleased by "sugar" might find exciting to sleep with. 

But even Chad isn't made of cotton candy deep down. 

So, I'm not saying there are men that exist who are too naturally attractive for women to feel those complex erotic feelings towards him.

What I'm saying is that the typical 'Fuck-boy Chad", 'sleep with him immediately' dynamic itself is lukewarm.

[LordFall]

@Emerald I hope you understand why men are drawn to becoming Chad. What you said is basically the cause of the dating industry in a nutshell. A dude wondering why his dating life is not working and then women around him saying "you're perfect the way you are, don't change a thing. I wouldn't date you though but some girl will!"

What's great about game and pickup is they produce expected results. Perhaps, to use your analogy, it teaches a regular man how to turn his outer shell into cotton candy instead of being the average boring or complaining Joe. 

Some dudes take it too far and become entirely unrelatable in the process but for most men, it simply makes them more dynamic and attractive.

Edited yesterday at 05:03 AM by LordFall

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Emerald I hope you understand why men are drawn to becoming Chad. What you said is basically the cause of the dating industry in a nutshell. A dude wondering why his dating life is not working and then women around him saying "you're perfect the way you are don't change a thing. I don't wanna date you though but some girl will!"

What's great about game and pickup is they produces expected results. Perhaps to use your analogy it teaches a regular man how to turn his outer shell into cotton candy instead of being the average boring or complaining Joe. 

Some dudes take it too far and become entirely unrelatable in the process but for most it just makes us more attractive. 

This is all fantasy unless it is confirmed.  

[LordFall]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

This is all fantasy unless it is confirmed.  

What is confirmed? That pickup gets you laid? I've confirmed it bro, don't worry. 

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Emerald I hope you understand why men are drawn to becoming Chad. What you said is basically the cause of the dating industry in a nutshell. A dude wondering why his dating life is not working and then women around him saying "you're perfect the way you are, don't change a thing. I wouldn't date you though but some girl will!"

What's great about game and pickup is they produce expected results. Perhaps, to use your analogy, it teaches a regular man how to turn his outer shell into cotton candy instead of being the average boring or complaining Joe. 

Some dudes take it too far and become entirely unrelatable in the process but for most men, it simply makes them more dynamic and attractive.

What I'm saying is that turning your outer shell into cotton candy will get you clearer quantifiable results... but it comes at a price.

And it's similar to what @Joshe said in his post... you will know deep down that the women are only attracted to the cotton candy layer and not the guy underneath it.

So, as a woman who is only attracted to the guy underneath the cotton candy layer, I'm saying...

Stop coating a rare and expensive complex dessert in cheap cotton candy. 

[LordFall]

@Emerald That's where I'm gonna have to draw the line and where your analogy falls apart. Learning social skills is not cheapening your character. It just helps you sell your character. 

Some dudes use being a smooth talker to distract others and themselves from the fact that they have nothing to offer. That does not equate to recommending people not to learn smooth talking. 

A woman generally does not want a man to become drastically more attractive, that makes him harder to keep. It's hard for women to give unbiased advice in that regard, especially without lived experience of having to attract women. 

Edited yesterday at 05:44 AM by LordFall

[Emerald]

36 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Emerald That's where I'm gonna have to draw the line and where your analogy falls apart. Learning social skills is not cheapening your character. It just helps you sell your character. 

Some dudes use being a smooth talker to distract others and themselves from the fact that they have nothing to offer. That does not equate to recommending people not to learn smooth talking. 

A woman generally does not want a man to become drastically more attractive, that makes him harder to keep. It's hard for women to give unbiased advice in that regard.

Learning social skills in one thing, as long as you're not masking your actual personality.

Another thing entirely is to try to turn yourself into Chad... or to Chadify your personality in order to get more quantifiable results.

It always seems like men tend to get into pick-up because they don't like themselves very much. And they try to hollow themselves out to become whoever they think women will be attracted to and that other men will respect.

And that tends to make men who do that feel a lot blander to me.

 

Edit: Another point I forgot to mention is that I'm specifically talking about what makes a man more attractive in my experience. And the vibes that make a man attractive don't really have anything to do with what pick-up teaches.

These vibes come from his natural personality and the level of inner and outer work he's done to develop himself... not for women, but simply because it was important and meaningful to him. 

So, I am saying, "Stop coating an expensive dessert with cotton candy"... because I think the expensive dessert is more attractive than the cotton candy.

So, my whole point is that I want men to stop making themselves less attractive with gimmicky stuff... and to put their focus on real personal development, where they can actually develop themselves into the greatest version of themselves (which is the most attractive version).

And the cotton candy coating doesn't cut it, as the cotton candy technique is usually used by men who feel like they're not good enough as they are trying to get women's validation.

But the tricky thing is... the most highly developed guy probably won't get as much overt female attention as a guy using pick-up tactics in the same way that fewer people will buy an expensive dessert and many people will buy cheap cotton candy from the gas station.

So, it's really a matter of a man asking himself, "Would I rather become the greatest and most polarizingly attractive version of myself.. or would I rather larp as the kind of man who gives off a signal that a sizable minority of girls like enough to sleep with on a lonely or wild night?"

And I tend to find that, when men answer this in the direction of "I want to be whatever women like"... he caps his potential significantly and doesn't grow into the highest, best, and most attractive version of himself.

Edited yesterday at 06:17 AM by Emerald

[LordFall]

32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Learning social skills in one thing, as long as you're not masking your actual personality.

Another thing entirely is to try to turn yourself into Chad... or to Chadify your personality in order to get more quantifiable results.

It always seems like men tend to get into pick-up because they don't like themselves very much. And they try to hollow themselves out to become whoever they think women will be attracted to and that other men will respect.

And that tends to make men who do that feel a lot blander to me.

Can you share specific examples? It's hard to talk in generalities. 

What I will say is that there is a general sequence that pickup teaches you to sleep with women. If you deviate from this sequence you will get worse results. The obvious rebuttal to that is you don't want to sleep with random women that you don't care about, being yourself authentically will get you the right woman! 

I think it sort of maybe works like that but it's really not that simple. It's also not about hollowing yourself out more like presenting a socially appropriate front to meet people and then as you get to know people better you get less filtered. I had this exact conversation with the guy I used to throw events with as he ran into a similar issue.

There is a formula to get laid with women often and it's basically: don't talk about anything deep apart from in passing and just tease her, banter and make it more man to woman frame like talk more slowly, strong eye contact, etc.

When I talk to people naturally I like to talk about deep subjects, speculate about the future and be really nerdy. When I do that I don't get laid. I have interesting conversations and girls say wow you're cool and then idk not much happens. If I censor most of it and act funny and tease them and escalate then we fuck.

I am working to mix both but it's not easy that's for sure. Also it's not even really sure that that's a good strategy, I think attracting a wide variety of women then selecting the ones you like is the best strategy. The other strategy is basically saying don't have a strategy and hope for the best! 

Edited yesterday at 06:21 AM by LordFall

[eos_nyxia]

On 2026-09-01 at 3:40 PM, Joshe said:

It actually would be interesting to figure out what is the difference in Natasha's perspective where she's receptive to being approached so long as it meets her standards, and the other girls who aren't interested in that approach at all. Like, try to answer this question.

I have intuitions about the difference, but not sure. I suspect Natasha is a bit on the wild side a little bit. Can't unpack what exactly that means at the moment, but it has to do with spontaneity and potentially a specific flavor of openness. Almost like she actually wants it happen or welcomes it because it's an opportunity to be excited/interested in something new. Just the first few things that popped into my head. 

See, this inquiry is gold because if you spend the time figuring this out, you enhance your models of women and therefore can see the patterns when you're out and about and you aren't stuck with a one-size-fits-all approach. Imagine being able to get a read on both and calibrating for what you think would work on them specifically. 

One thing I didn't add is that it depends on what your local environment is like. The area I'm from (Greater Vancouver, Canada) is notoriously standoffish to strangers, like a lot of people I've known over the years have the social group/ cliques they grew up with, and that's it. They're not really that open to meeting new people for the most part, let alone random people outside of a structured, familiar social context. I've actually been far more open to being approached by strangers in the past, just not at this phase in my life. 

Part of it is natural openness, part of it is being very open to other cultures (my parents were an international couple), and part of it was honestly trauma which made me very open in my willingness to go too deep, too quickly. (By this, I don't mean sexually, as in, not interested in going along with it regardless of if I'm attracted to them. But I mean emotionally as in being an open book for deep conversations, willing to give decent-seeming people the benefit of the doubt with my trust, willing to hang out and be in slightly more private places than public.)

It's this last thing which I'm calling a red flag, even without the sex. Maybe things are a bit different culturally now, but people then very much considered this to be unwise, unsafe behaviour. The most aggressive, victim-blaming version of this (which has been said to my face): if something bad happens to you, you deserve it. My own spin on this was that if I cannot trust my judgement in people or my discernment, I have NOTHING, because there is nothing in this world that will protect you from your own lack of discernment. (And judgement must be honed and tested, and not just be something you put faith in.) Ironically, it's the people you know the best who already have the most intimate, vulnerable access to you that are the most risk, statistically speaking. Friends and acquaintances, family, and others in positions of authority even if they are "trusted members of the community".  

Anyway, we also don't really have much of a bar/ club culture here, so special interests it is! Things like hiking and even winter sports are less niche here and more like, everyone does it or has done it, so the "pool" for the types of people you'd get is very wide. People are on average very athletic and fit here (I think the city recently ranked as like 2nd fittest city in North America, for whatever it's worth). 

Most of the people who I met who I felt the most comfortable talking to were compulsively extroverted and also came from much more extroverted cultures. Off the top of my head: Latin American, African, French Canadian, etc. 

If I lived in a different culture (let's just say Quebec), I would probably be much more open to strangers and honestly friendlier. Even speaking in French for extended periods of time makes me much more "animated" lol. ***hand gestures***

 

Edited yesterday at 06:44 AM by eos_nyxia

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, LordFall said:

Can you share specific examples? It's hard to talk in generalities. 

What I will say is that there is a general sequence that pickup teaches you to sleep with women. If you deviate from this sequence you will get worse results. The obvious rebuttal to that is you don't want to sleep with random women that you don't care about, being yourself authentically will get you the right woman! 

I don't really think it's that simple at all. I think also we evolve over time and our desires change. The type of woman I desire now is vastly different than who I would've wanted at 18 years old. Back then I really wanted a chill gamer girl to play games and watch anime with me. I had a FWB like that in my mid 20s and it was really boring. 

I had this exact conversation with the guy I used to throw events with as he ran into a similar issue. There is a formula to get laid with women often and it's basically don't talk about anything deep apart from in passing and just tease her, banter and make it more man to woman frame like talk more slowly, strong eye contact, etc. When I talk to people naturally I like to talk about deep subjects and speculate about the future and be really nerdy. When I do that I don't get laid I have interesting conversations and girls say wow you're cool and then idk not much happens. If I censor most of it and act funny and tease them and escalate then we fuck. I am working to mix both but it's not easy that's for sure. Also it's not even really sure that that's a good strategy, I think attracting a wide variety of women then selecting the ones you like is the best strategy. 

I can speak of how I've tended to get attracted to men over the years.

I'm usually existing in a similar space with him over time and develop feelings for him. And then, I put myself in proximity to him and try to end up in situations where we can be alone without being direct about it. 

Then, usually things will escalate when he or I create physical contact with plausible deniability... which eventually escalates into intimacy.

And it's always been the guy's core personality that was attractive to me... not gimmicky stuff where he's doing techniques and tactics. 

But when I was younger (like a teenager), I was a lot shyer about getting closer to a guy I was interested in. So, there were times where a guy missed his chance because I took his lack of escalation as non-interest... and I didn't want to creep him out or for him to feel violated or disturbed by my romantic/sexual interest. I always felt like I'd be perceived as some weird stalker person.

Like, I was attracted to this guy in a couple of my classes in the 11th grade who was kind of nerdy and kind of shy. And after flirting with each other all semester, I told him how I felt about him in gym class one day and he confessed that he had mutual feelings towards me (around October/November). But then, Winter break happened... and we didn't exchange numbers or go on a date. And he never asked me to be his girlfriend.

And things change quickly when you're 16. So, over the course of 3-4 months of not interacting with him, I lost my feelings for him and I started seeing someone else right before Valentines Day, and I assumed he moved on too and that nothing came of it.

But then, he came into my class with a big bouquet of roses for me on Valentines Day literally a week after I started seeing someone else. And I felt so bad because I thought he just wasn't that interested, as he hadn't spoken to me in months and never asked me to be his girlfriend.

But I realized in that moment that he probably never lost feelings for me the entire time... and he waited too long.

So, I do see the importance of knowing how to pick up on signals and escalate things romantically and sexually. That takes some courage and some social skills. 

But a guy need not mold himself into an imitation of Mr. Cool to do that. And he doesn't need to hold onto these convoluted paradigms about female sexuality. that don't actually match the real thing.

But my experience has always been... "Exist in a social space with a guy over time... develop a crush... flirt and get closer without being too direct... indirectly create opportunities and alone time for him to escalate things or for mutual escalation to happen."

So, I'm not saying that it's not important to learn how to escalate. 

This issue is that men can learn these frameworks and try to do an imitation of the type of guy he thinks that women like. And there can be an illusion that women will always prefer that kind of guy... no matter that woman.

 

[Olaf]

@Emerald I think you got a point, my relationship that was built from pickup was a bit superficial, compared to my first relationship. I think that pickup is a bit like selling, like its not organic, you basically sell the girl a cookie or in this case, yourself. For something natural to come is quite rare for guys, more common for girls, I don´t think guys have much options where something organically grows and far more often are put into the friend zone.

As a woman you might have 6 guys or so interested in you romantically or at least open to it and for a guy that could literally be 0 hahaha For such a guy I have empathy and would want him to also have options by building himself up to be more attractive. I think the amount of woman that some guys have as options to choose from is just to cry for, literally guys killing themself, because of this.

So it is quite a serious topic and I agree that pick-up isn´t ideal. I would probably say some middle ground would be best, where on one side it is more organic and on the other side there is also work on attraction etc. I am actually even thinking, for me right now getting a girlfriend from, I don´t know like some hobby that I do or something, is much easier due to pick up, because I am not afraid to escalate. 

`Female Tinder usage data was collected and statistically analyzed to determine the inequality in the Tinder economy. It was determined that the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men.` from this article: https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a

Edited 20 hours ago by Olaf

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, Olaf said:

@Emerald I think you got a point, my relationship that was built from pickup was a bit superficial, compared to my first relationship. I think that pickup is a bit like selling, like its not organic, you basically sell the girl a cookie or in this case, yourself. For something natural to come is quite rare for guys, more common for girls, I don´t think guys have much options where something organically grows and far more often are put into the friend zone.

As a woman you might have 6 guys or so interested in you romantically or at least open to it and for a guy that could literally be 0 hahaha For such a guy I have empathy and would want him to also have options by building himself up to be more attractive. I think the amount of woman that some guys have as options to choose from is just to cry for, literally guys killing themself, because of this.

So it is quite a serious topic and I agree that pick-up isn´t ideal. I would probably say some middle ground would be best, where on one side it is more organic and on the other side there is also work on attraction etc. I am actually even thinking, for me right now getting a girlfriend from, I don´t know like some hobby that I do or something, is much easier due to pick up, because I am not afraid to escalate. 

`Female Tinder usage data was collected and statistically analyzed to determine the inequality in the Tinder economy. It was determined that the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men.` from this article: https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a

See, you can't look at dating app stat as an actual indicator of how women and men get attracted to one another.

And it's purely an illusion that men don't have options. Men who co-exist in mixed gender social circles eventually discover this.

It's just that women are less likely to communicate their feelings.

But the unfortunate thing I that many men now-a-days are not co-existing in social groups because of the nature of the internet. So, he never discovers the fact that, "Oh. I actually have plenty of options." 

So, I see pick-up as a way of getting results that are more obvious in the age of social media.

But it doesn't actually make a man more attractive. It just makes him more likely to get quantifiable results... but he often loses quality in the process and sets himself up in a way that cuts him off from the more organic results that men tended to get in the past (before pick-up was well-known).

[LordFall]

@Emerald Thanks for sharing, you touched on some good points here.

That's why I believe in social circle game so strongly. If a man develops a community around his interest that has women in it, his dating life will be pretty much taken care of for the next 20 years. 

Casual sex is a concept that should be understood separately from this and can work in tandem or separately from the social circle strategy. 

I think it's important to separate the gimmicks and game tactics from deep self-development. Both have their importance but if you build your identity around gimmicks then you will turn off developed women that have been there done that. Tactics are very important if you want to get laid though, it will make the difference on a 5 year window between sleeping with dozens of women and 1-2, with no bearing on your ability to find a long term partner. So might as well learn them if you want to get laid. 

An example of a tactic would be to schedule dates near your place so you can invite them over. I do believe it's a good move to try to sleep with a woman as early as you can but also not to be pushy if she wants to wait longer. One of my favorite FWBs I've had made me wait 7 dates to fuck. Each time we got a bit further and on the 7th time I told her I felt like I was wasting my time and I did like hanging out with her but I'm a sexual being and if she's not looking for that then it's best we go our separate ways. She respected the honesty and we fucked that night. 

Edited 12 hours ago by LordFall

[Olaf]

@Emerald many men first of all don´t have the balls to escalate, many men don´t know how to escalate things and will remain in the friend zone. I was talking to this dude who went on a date and he made so many mistakes in escalation, he will never find a girlfriend if he doesn´t change the way he escalates. There is so many men that simply can´t get woman, you would be surprised. This idea that everything comes naturally and be your authentic self is a lie. You got to know some basic shit, doesn´t mean you need to be a master at PUA it just means some basic stuff. If a guy is very nervous, escalates the wrong way, remains in the friend zone, creep the girl out, never becomes attractive to her, all of these things are very important and that isn´t even some great PUA technique, just basic stuff. 

The only other option would be if woman started approaching men, but that is not happening. I got approached maybe 4 times in my adult life by a woman and I am out allot, I am out almost all the time. Most guys never even get approached. 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

@Emerald Thanks for sharing, you touched on some good points here.

That's why I believe in social circle game so strongly. If a man develops a community around his interest that has women in it, his dating life will be pretty much taken care of for the next 20 years. 

Casual sex is a concept that should be understood separately from this and can work in tandem or separately from the social circle strategy. 

I think it's important to separate the gimmicks and game tactics from deep self-development. Both have their importance but if you build your identity around gimmicks then you will turn off developed women that have been there done that. Tactics are very important if you want to get laid though, it will make the difference on a 5 year window between sleeping with dozens of women and 1-2, with no bearing on your ability to find a long term partner. So might as well learn them if you want to get laid. 

An example of a tactic would be to schedule dates near your place so you can invite them over. I do believe it's a good move to try to sleep with a woman as early as you can but also not to be pushy if she wants to wait longer. One of my favorite FWBs I've had made me wait 7 dates to fuck. Each time we got a bit further and on the 7th time I told her I felt like I was wasting my time and I did like hanging out with her but I'm a sexual being and if she's not looking for that then it's best we go our separate ways. She respected the honesty and we fucked that night. 

I agree that casual sex is somewhat separate from that.

But I also tend to think a man has to make himself less attractive to optimize himself for casual sex. 

It's kind of like a woman who optimizes her physical appearance for the purpose of getting more casual sex. She might dress in a way that looks kind of trashy and gaudy with lots of loud make-up and skin showing... not because she like it, but because it sends a clear signal to get men looking for a hook-up to approach.

And when men develop 'pick-up personality', it's like putting a bunch of trashy, gaudy make-up on their personality. And it's easy to sense that on a guy.

And it ultimately isn't necessary. If a man is decently socially adept, relatively normal, and talks to women frequently in social spaces... he will have opportunities for casual sex without having to change his personality or operate through weird paradigms about women.

Of course, it's helpful to know tactics like the "schedule dates near your place" one. But that's not one that involves becoming someone else or adopting weird paradigms. So, it's not what I'm talking about.

[Olaf]

@Emerald thats not true, guys can't just casually hook up with a girl, like a girl casually hooks up with a guy, but I am not even talking about pick up, like building a relationship, you know how many guys would spend money on a girl or do all kinds of nice guy bullshit to get the girl and it is just so ineffective, nice guys don't finnish last, they never finnish, because fundamentally their way of getting a girl for a relationship aswell as a girl for a one night stand is both very very very ineffective. It's repulsive, but the thing is no one will tell them. One thing is to learn what to do, another thing is learning what not to do! Which is as much of a long list of all kinds of nice guy behaviors that make women stay as far away as possible from him.

As a woman, you see guys getting laid all the time, because the guys who don't get laid, you avoid and never talk to and will never enter your inner circle. This is the reality, so game isn't really there to teach you how to wear some pick-up mask of some charming manipulator, it teaches how to stop doing all this stuff that repulses women, which is arguably more important than any technique. 

[Emerald]

34 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Emerald many men first of all don´t have the balls to escalate, many men don´t know how to escalate things and will remain in the friend zone. I was talking to this dude who went on a date and he made so many mistakes in escalation, he will never find a girlfriend if he doesn´t change the way he escalates.

There is so many men that simply can´t get woman, you would be surprised. This idea that everything comes naturally and be your authentic self is a lie. You got to know some basic shit, doesn´t mean you need to be a master at PUA it just means some basic stuff. If a guy is very nervous, escalates the wrong way, remains in the friend zone, creep the girl out, never becomes attractive to her, all of these things are very important and that isn´t even some great PUA technique, just basic stuff. 

The only other option would be if woman started approaching men, but that is not happening. I got approached maybe 4 times in my adult life by a woman and I am out allot, I am out almost all the time. Most guys never even get approached. 

It is important for a man to learn how to read social cues and escalate. But those are not the kinds of tactics that I take issue with. 

I'm talking more about a guy operating in inauthentic ways to try to attract women... and getting sucked into the pick-up mindset.

And I don't believe there are ANY men in existence who simply can't get women. I've known tons of unattractive and socially challenged and even creepy guys who had plenty of girlfriends in my hometown.

There's one guy in particular who always comes to mind who is the least attractive guy that I've ever met in EVERY single way... and he had several girlfriends in the few years that I was acquainted with him. 

So, if that guy can pull it off, ANY guy can pull it off. It's only social isolation that gives the illusion that some guys simply can't.

Honestly, the main difference between a guy who gets girlfriends/sex and a guy who doesn't is purely his choice to be social or not. 

Of course, men who don't socialize aren't going to get women who are attracted to him... because no women actually know he exists.

But if those same "can't get women" guys are somehow forced to socialize in co-ed groups, he will have opportunities to partner up and have sex. And that's where the illusion of scarcity breaks.

Also, I didn't say that success comes from simply being one's authentic self. So, let me add some nuance.

If a man hasn't worked on himself in a general personal development sense, there can be all kinds of unattractive patterns he could engage in.... like lying, being desperate, poor hygiene, not knowing how to carry on a conversation, not having anything going for himself, laziness, mooching, being socially unattuned, creepiness, etc.

All of these can be where a man AUTHENTICALLY is. And they're not attractive qualities. 

But the solution to these issues isn't pick-up... it's general personal and career development work. And that's what ACTUALLY makes a man's vibe attractive is when he's developed himself into a deeply authentic and amazing person.

And I tend to find that pick-up detours men away from developing into that exalted version of themselves. 

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It is important for a man to learn how to read social cues and escalate. But those are not the kinds of tactics that I take issue with. 

I'm talking more about a guy operating in inauthentic ways to try to attract women... and getting sucked into the pick-up mindset.

And I don't believe there are ANY men in existence who simply can't get women. I've known tons of unattractive and socially challenged and even creepy guys who had plenty of girlfriends in my hometown.

There's one guy in particular who always comes to mind who is the least attractive guy that I've ever met in EVERY single way... and he had several girlfriends in the few years that I was acquainted with him. 

So, if that guy can pull it off, ANY guy can pull it off. It's only social isolation that gives the illusion that some guys simply can't.

Honestly, the main difference between a guy who gets girlfriends/sex and a guy who doesn't is purely his choice to be social or not. 

Of course, men who don't socialize aren't going to get women who are attracted to him... because no women actually know he exists.

But if those same "can't get women" guys are somehow forced to socialize in co-ed groups, he will have opportunities to partner up and have sex. And that's where the illusion of scarcity breaks.

Also, I didn't say that success comes from simply being one's authentic self. So, let me add some nuance.

If a man hasn't worked on himself in a general personal development sense, there can be all kinds of unattractive patterns he could engage in.... like lying, being desperate, poor hygiene, not knowing how to carry on a conversation, not having anything going for himself, laziness, mooching, being socially unattuned, creepiness, etc.

All of these can be where a man AUTHENTICALLY is. And they're not attractive qualities. 

But the solution to these issues isn't pick-up... it's general personal and career development work. And that's what ACTUALLY makes a man's vibe attractive is when he's developed himself into a deeply authentic and amazing person.

And I tend to find that pick-up detours men away from developing into that exalted version of themselves. 

I think this is true.  But you also have to consider the source in the sense that is this person who has all these standards enough for my standards?  

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Emerald thats not true, guys can't just casually hook up with a girl, like a girl casually hooks up with a guy, but I am not even talking about pick up, like building a relationship, you know how many guys would spend money on a girl or do all kinds of nice guy bullshit to get the girl and it is just so ineffective, nice guys don't finnish last, they never finnish, because fundamentally their way of getting a girl for a relationship aswell as a girl for a one night stand is both very very very ineffective. It's repulsive, but the thing is no one will tell them. One thing is to learn what to do, another thing is learning what not to do! Which is as much of a long list of all kinds of nice guy behaviors that make women stay as far away as possible from him.

As a woman, you see guys getting laid all the time, because the guys who don't get laid, you avoid and never talk to and will never enter your inner circle. This is the reality, so game isn't really there to teach you how to wear some pick-up mask of some charming manipulator, it teaches how to stop doing all this stuff that repulses women, which is arguably more important than any technique. 

First off, I didn't claim that hooking up is just as easy for men as it is for women. 

For women, we just have to lower our boundaries for a day... and we could sleep with like 50 guys a day without much effort. Just put out a sign that says "Free sex" and it's done.

So, it's no where in the same caliber for men. It will definitely be more challenging.

But my claim is that every guy who's social in a co-ed social circle is going to have some options. And if that same guy goes and does pick-up, he's going to probably get at least 1 yes for every 50 nos. 

And I don't recommend being a "nice guy" as that is very repulsive... as the niceness is usually, "I'm going to be nice to earn sex." And niceness just in't going cut it... as it isn't much of a virtue.

Also, I'm all for guys learning how to minimize their social deficits.

My issue is when a guy gets so influenced by pick-up mentality that he just tries to show up as whatever he think women will find attractive... and he loses the ability to just interact with women normally without the pick-up paradigm getting in the way.

[LordFall]

33 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I agree that casual sex is somewhat separate from that.

But I also tend to think a man has to make himself less attractive to optimize himself for casual sex. 

It's kind of like a woman who optimizes her physical appearance for the purpose of getting more casual sex. She might dress in a way that looks kind of trashy and gaudy with lots of loud make-up and skin showing... not because she like it, but because it sends a clear signal to get men looking for a hook-up to approach.

And when men develop 'pick-up personality', it's like putting a bunch of trashy, gaudy make-up on their personality. And it's easy to sense that on a guy.

And it ultimately isn't necessary. If a man is decently socially adept, relatively normal, and talks to women frequently in social spaces... he will have opportunities for casual sex without having to change his personality or operate through weird paradigms about women.

Of course, it's helpful to know tactics like the "schedule dates near your place" one. But that's not one that involves becoming someone else or adopting weird paradigms. So, it's not what I'm talking about.

I just don't agree with this at all. I think the female dating agenda leaking through your thoughts makes it not good advice for any man reading them. We're gonna have to be more specific to get to the truth of the matter. 

Every time I made myself more attractive and this led to more casual sex, it also led to women wanting to date me more seriously. 

Cold approach made me more social and less anxious with women and during the times I was doing it the most, I got two separate long term relationships out of it. Where I'm usually more in my head and anxious around women, I was talking to so many of them that I was able to be more present and direct with women in a platonic social setting and it led to them making moves on me both times.

Learning photography and social media led me to tons of hookups through dating apps and having a strong Instagram brand has ended up in me meeting a lot of high quality women and building social circles through which I now have female friends. I went on a date with a really sexy model last year that I don't think I would've been able to get out without this.

I don't workout but I also think that if you got more fit you would in general increase your odds of casual sex and also getting a long term relationship if that was your goal.

The female dating strategy and the male one are a bit conflicting in that regard where a woman wants her desired males to not be that attractive to other women since that increases her competition and makes her have to expend more energy to keep that male if he's willing to be monogamous at all.

There were some really cool girls that seemed to want to date me monogamously but I'm now on a quest towards being able to date 5 women at the same time. That's the last quest the average woman wants her male crushes to embark on lol. When I had less options in my early 20s I would've loved to date one of them but now that thought doesn't really satisfy me anymore. 

Edited 10 hours ago by LordFall