Relationship Based on Truth, Honesty & Vulnerability

[aurum]

19 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Lol. These ”holier than thou” projections and backhanded compliments are getting ridiculous.

Wasn't my intention to insult, it just seemed like a fit.

Everyone is working on different things.

[LordFall]

3 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

I do have a hard shell. Hence I am practicing to break it and to be more real.

ENFJ’s shadows is that they are social chameleons. Their natural tendency is to get along with everyone, and hate being criticized.

And pickup just makes it worse as you learn to push buttons of an unconscious individual, rather than to face their real self.

That was more vulnerable than you were before.

How come you hate being criticized? 

[Lyubov]

I'm not entirely following the disagreements in this thread but there are few things I believe I can speak on. 

Truth and honesty is not a standard to live up to or a measurement or set of rules. It is more of a path or a way, an unfolding or a becoming. 

I believe this purity test of somehow removing mystique or striving for the most honest and open communication is not actually truthful and ultimately is a lie because it's largely motivated out of fear and trying to be "safe" in the relationship (a person who is threatened by this ambiguous unknown space can see it as harmful deception if they believe the other person lied to them or didn't communicate things with them). Purity testing honesty is a misconception and not actually what's true. This space is also what drives passion and attraction. 

A relationship based on truth and honesty is not wearing your heart on your sleeve when you go out to meet a girl. The space between attraction especially when you first meet a girl is what drives the intense passion in the first place and is part of the dance. This is the law of the jungle. You observe the world without bias and truly understand it. Courting a mate has a ton of ambiguity and ideals of the most honest and perfect communication is not the solution to your fears and expectations about how you wish it were easier to navigate and more predictable. This is not remedied by imposing some ideal of being completely honest and open. You do not tell your mom she looks terrible and fat when she asks you how she looks in a new dress she bought that doesn't fit her. 

This sort of layer of ambiguity is not a bug of reality, it is an integral part to relating. You need to not judge others for how they navigate this. All honest relating is just being true to yourself and testing your beliefs against your spirit. Rome was not built in a day, the same goes for a great relationship. 

Edited yesterday at 11:00 AM by Lyubov

[Rafael Thundercat]

Back to the original video on this post. Well, apart of some good stuff we can take from it. I notice that perhaps in interviews as there is more ego present in the interaction, the sharing end up being not so clear. 

Thats why is good to look for other sources and cross polinate ideias.

Check this

 

I noticed this patters in my last relationship. Is hard to admit even to myself that I let fantasy and limerence rob the autenticity I praise as a value in my life. And of course from her side there as a lot too, and I was even falty in not stoping it when I saw it. In words, behavios etc.. We need to be aware of what we feed in the relationship because we will end up needing to deal with the consequences later on. 

Last question she did for me in a instagram message was " Would you prefer something Toxic?" And then a story posted with her picture and a message saying  " I died" and " Why?" 

Then 3 days later I discovered via a friend that she tried to hang herself. 

 

[Zenterus]

This man getting cooked every time he makes a thread lol

[LordFall]

5 minutes ago, Zenterus said:

This man getting cooked every time he makes a thread lol

That's good. Same concept I posted in this man's thread on being antifragile vs just solid.

Getting exposed on a forum for your blindspots is optimal, it's a low stakes intellectual sandbox. Then you fix it and you crush at life. Myself I test ideas here that are more radical than what I usually share and then I see how you guys react and then I post it on Instagram if it makes sense or if it's a silly take I learn from it and move on. 

Miguel is ambitious enough to lay out his desires in the open. That does take courage. Many people on here don't actually post anything about the desired life they want because I feel like just someone disagreeing with them is too painful to their ego. 

Edited 6 hours ago by LordFall

[Miguel1]

19 hours ago, Lyubov said:

You do not tell your mom she looks terrible and fat when she asks you how she looks in a new dress she bought that doesn't fit her. 

This sort of layer of ambiguity is not a bug of reality, it is an integral part to relating. You need to not judge others for how they navigate this. All honest relating is just being true to yourself and testing your beliefs against your spirit. Rome was not built in a day, the same goes for a great relationship. 

You do not need to be a jerk when you are being honest.

Just think: what kind of relationships (whether friendship, romantic or business) we would build if the central gravity of society was SD Yellow / Turquoise? Now this is an extreme example, but it is just to make a point.

This is honestly so obvious to me I cannot believe how some of you fight against this so hard.

One of my main reasons coming to this forum is to discuss more conscious form of relationships. If we clearly disagree this badly, it might be better I step down. I am not interested in endless arguing and conversations that lead nowhere. It is very clear we disagree on the fundamentals.

Are you fully honest, open and vulnerable with a stage orange normie? No. Do you want to build a deep meaningful relationship with them? No, unless you are stuck there.

Some of you are clearly stuck in orange and optimizing for that life, and that is fine, but don’t come with all your rationalizations and defenses when discussing more conscious form of relationships.

Some of you are clearly just in denial.

I have yet to see a proper argument against this form of relating, other than if you try to optimize for attraction with normies.

Edited 5 hours ago by Miguel1

[Miguel1]

20 hours ago, LordFall said:

That was more vulnerable than you were before.

How come you hate being criticized? 

Notice how all of your attitudes and framing of the whole conversation is:

- Miguel is wrong. He is stuck. He needs this and that to grow.

- You guys are right, and as a group, it is easier to be right together.

Everything I say or do is looked at through this filter. I am being overly praised for simple, normal honesty and vulnerability here (because it fits your frame). And overly criticized for anything that goes against your narrative.

All I ask for is total honesty and openess in relationships. How can this be so hard to grasp in such a forum?

What would a really conscious relationship look like to you? How would you go about building it, if there was zero or minimal manipulation at play?

Edited 4 hours ago by Miguel1

[Rafael Thundercat]

Here a interesting perspective from a woman:

'm going to take some heat for this.
i believe in dating for potential.
i think the likelihood that you meet someone that does all the right things and meets every one of your needs immediately is slim.
but (of course there's a but).
there's a difference between finessing details and waiting for someone to develop traits they don't have.
you can expect a person to improve their level of consideration, but you can't expect an inconsiderate person to suddenly turn into one.

women didn't have much choice in their partners for a long time.
patriarchy upended the selection process completely.
when women couldn't earn money or own property for themselves, they had to rely on men to provide it for them.
men who weren't always good people.
this is where the fantasy of a man changing for a woman was born.
it gave women hope. it kept them motivated, working towards the idea that if she worked hard enough, she could turn the man in front of her into the right one.

hope is a powerful motivator.
it makes a bad relationship feel more tolerable.
if a woman can hold on to hope that her sacrifice and hard work will pay off eventually, she can keep going.
but if we examine that story, it's missing something.
and that's evidence.
do we actually have any examples of a man changing his ways completely within a relationship?
and not only within a relationship, but within a relationship to the same woman?

i'm hard pressed to come up with a single example.
i know men who have changed, no doubt.
but when it happens, if it happens at all, it's after the relationship has ended.
sometimes there's a reconciliation, but the ending is the trigger for growth.
i've also seen men change within a relationship when they meet another woman while still in it.
the idea that a woman can change a man just by loving him enough is an illusion.

the reason it doesn't work is biological.
men and women are wired differently.
for women, oxytocin is the primary motivator.
the love hormone.
to her, love is incredibly motivating. it's what keeps her trying long after she should have called it quits.
men aren't motivated by oxytocin, they bond through vasopressin.
they're motivated by challenge.

women are using a feminine blueprint on men.
it doesn't work.
we know men don't change through loving them enough, otherwise we'd have examples of it.
what kept women motivated in unhappy relationships before is now the reason they get stuck.
there's only one way a man changes his behavior.
and that's because he wants to.

it's also incredibly unlikely that any person, regardless of gender, completely changes major personality traits.
someone who doesn't plan dates at all won't suddenly plan thoughtful ones every weekend.
someone who prioritizes work won't wake up one day and invest more in relationships.
a person who isn't expressive won't shower you with compliments out of the blue.
we can edit, improve, and slightly alter characteristics a person already has, but we can't force them to develop what isn't there.

people aren't play doh.
it's not up to us to decide who they should be.
it's incredibly important that when we ask for what we need from our partners, we also respect their autonomy.
staying with someone and applying relentless pressure to become someone they're not isn't love.
it's manipulation.
it's not our job to change people.
it's our job to choose the right ones.