Am I totally inferring the link between two events? Causation question...

[LastThursday]

Every cause is unique, every outcome unique. It's never the same dog yelp, it's never the same step on the dog. Causes are categories of things, which needs you to connect things into "sameness". Causation also needs separation, the process of stepping needs to be separated from the process of the dog yelping. Without sameness and without separation what do you have?

[integral]

@Natasha Tori Maru this is hilarious

Quote

What the pigeon experiment actually shows: Skinner put pigeons on a timer that dropped food at fixed intervals regardless of what the bird did. The food was uncorrelated with behavior — pure coincidence. But whatever the bird happened to be doing when food arrived, it started repeating — head-bobbing, turning counterclockwise, pecking a corner — because it had formed a false belief about cause and effect. It built a ritual on a correlation that wasn't there.

 

[Someone here]

Some ancient Islamic theologians and mystics have denied causality as well before David Hume was even born . They said things don’t actually happen because of the previous causes but because of god’s will through apparent causes . For example if you burn in fire what’s actually burning you is God’s will not the fire.. just as in a dream a bird might shit on your suit and you would believe that the cause of the dirt on your suit was caused by the bird dropping the shit on you ..but actually the actual cause is your will as the dreamer. 
ultimately you must deconstruct all of reality . All of logic and mathematics and science are not absolutely true . They are not absolutely untrue as well ..they are just conditionally true . 

[Joseph Maynor]

Is causation so tricky to understand?  

[Someone here]

58 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Is causation so tricky to understand?  

Yes it’s a huge philosophical conundrum.  Simply put with an example: you are thirsty . So you drink a glass of water . Then you feel hydrated and refreshed. You then conclude the quenching of thirst happens because you drank the water.

what ACTUALLY happened in physical reality is drinking the water followed by the feeling of satisfaction.  Now ..”quenching of thirst was created by drinking “ . This statement is NOT found in the physical world . It’s a mental abstraction. What you have in the actual world is thirst +drinking + quenching.  An event following another event . “Causation “ is NOT  found in the world .  It’s a mental interpretation.

[Joseph Maynor]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yes it’s a huge philosophical conundrum.  Simply put with an example: you are thirsty . So you drink a glass of water . Then you feel hydrated and refreshed. You then conclude the quenching of thirst happens because you drank the water.

what ACTUALLY happened in physical reality is drinking the water followed by the feeling of satisfaction.  Now ..”quenching of thirst was created by drinking “ . This statement is NOT found in the physical world . It’s a mental abstraction. What you have in the actual world is thirst +drinking + quenching.  An event following another event . “Causation “ is NOT  found in the world .  It’s a mental interpretation.

I respect this, but what you are doing is concluding what you or someone else goes thru when they drink a glass of water.  This is ridiculous on some level.  

[Someone here]

@Joseph Maynor I explained it to the best of my ability.  That’s simply it . In the physical world an event follows and event following an event . The idea of causation isn’t in actuality . It’s in your head . 

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Joseph Maynor I explained it to the best of my ability.  That’s simply it . In the physical world an event follows and event following an event . The idea of causation isn’t in actuality . It’s in your head . 

Drink a glass of water.  What is that experience?

[TheGreekSeeker]

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Joseph Maynor I explained it to the best of my ability.  That’s simply it . In the physical world an event follows and event following an event . The idea of causation isn’t in actuality . It’s in your head . 

So basically you're saying that causation necessitates language and thought? Or even awareness?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Someone here Yep I largely agree with your summary. 

Causality appears inferred to me

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Someone here Yep I largely agree with your summary. 

Causality appears inferred to me

Why?

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Drink a glass of water.  What is that experience?

exactly that . What’s your point? 
I will flip the script on you for you . Riddle me this : for your entire have quenched your thirst through drinking water.  How do you know that next time you drink it won’t just quench you? 
just to be clear ..obviously this world seems to follow static rules.  But what keeps those laws constant ? Please contemplate seriously .

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Someone here said:

exactly that . What’s your point? 
I will flip the script on you for you . Riddle me this : for your entire have quenched your thirst through drinking water.  How do you know that next time you drink it won’t just quench you? 
just to be clear ..obviously this world seems to follow static rules.  But what keeps those laws constant ? Please contemplate seriously .

I don't think like this.

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, TheGreekSeeker said:

So basically you're saying that causation necessitates language and thought? Or even awareness?

Yes exactly. If you don’t think or interpret your experience you will just find events happening . You have to use your intellect to make a conclusion based on what you’re experiencing.

[Someone here]

@Joseph Maynor fair enough . Have a nice day/evening .

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Someone here said:

Yes exactly. If you don’t think or interpret your experience you will just find events happening . You have to use your intellect to make a conclusion based on what you’re experiencing.

I'm glad to see how you think and that you are trying to teach me.  Thanks but no thanks if that makes sense!

[TheGreekSeeker]

3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

just to be clear ..obviously this world seems to follow static rules.  But what keeps those laws constant ? Please contemplate seriously .

If the world didn't have causality, would you suggest that it'd be more magical? Like quantum mechanics hand through the walls magical?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Why?

One event happens. Then another. 

I can notice a pattern between the events.

But in reality - there is no direct connection (happening in reality).

They are seperated. 

The noticing is my own interpretation added onto reality. 

Where does one event end, and one begin? It becomes an infinite regression all the way down trying to find the time point one thing happens and, in reality, directly caused the other.

For me it's because time isn't real.

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[TheGreekSeeker]

@Someone here Causality keeps the dream going is what I think. Without causaliity and rules God wouldn't be able to contain its Consciousness.

[Joseph Maynor]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

One event happens. Then another. 

I can notice a pattern between the events.

But in reality - there is no direct connection (happening in reality).

They are seperated. 

The noticing is my own interpretation added onto reality. 

Where does one event end, and one begin? It becomes an infinite regression all the way down trying to find the time point one thing happens and, in reality, directly caused the other.

For me it's because time isn't real.

But why is this an obsession to you?