Drama Alert! Another YTber is calling us a cult! 😈☦️

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@integral This is really cool ! What are the colours pertaining too?

Edited 4 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Elliott]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

No problem at all! 

The part where I mentioned he asked God why he was a narc, that's not a thing in my model of Leo. I was just highlighting it to show there have at least been moments of recognition. I don't know to what extent he recognizes it and I don't have any real data aside from that one admission. It would be interested to dive into this though because he publicly states that he's not a narc. So that would be interesting to explore.

I intuit he knows it and realizes there's nothing he can do about it, and he knows that it's not something he can publicly own up to. "Yeah, I'm a narc" from the a guy who teaches consciousness and ego transcendence doesn't go over well. Also, when I say Leo is aware of it, I don't mean he's fully aware of it. I mean that he knows it's there. If I had to guess, he probably hasn't dissected it very much. But it's possible he has dissected it and is just something he lives with. 

Narcissism is not a selected conscious strategy. It's an operative one outside one's control. It would be like recognizing you're an introvert and not being able to do anything about it. You know you're an introvert, and you can't change it. That's what it is like to be a perceptive narcissist. It's just who and how you are and you live with it and don't experience it as a bad thing because it's what rewards you. It's native. 

He's not consciously seeking validation or superiority. He's not intentionally alienating people. The seeking is unconscious but the expression is granted. When a structure is that deep in you, it operates without you. When Leo's narcissism slips, it's not intentional, it's reactive. He NEEDS to elevate himself and the only way to do it is by putting someone else down. This is the main thing hiding behind his constant bashing of scientists. They're in his domain of "exploring reality" and they claim to be intellectually sophisticated, and that's Leo's turf. 

Regarding why the overt narcissism doesn't destroy the supply: because Leo is intelligent enough to say things like "look, when I tell you I'm the most advanced, I'm just telling you what I've observed and found to be true, it has nothing to do with any ego drive, that's absurd. You guys take me for a fool." That and several other tactics are used to give plausible deniability. And it works because almost everyone here respects and trusts Leo as an intelligent thought leader. 

And yes, putting this information out makes it so he can adapt. But here's the thing: he can dial it down but he won't be able to stop, because it's his nature. He's not going to starve himself of that reward indefinitely. 

Hopefully that clears it up, but lmk. 

This makes it MUCH muddier to me, it appears to me to be obviously incoherent. So, you think Leo subconsciously wants approval yet he can consciously override his subconscious narcissism that he's unaware of, to allow threads like this on his forum? Yet he does not override his "overt narcissism", that he's regularly publicly derided about, on his forum, where he allows the derision. He has the control to stand here and take this, he's been posting in other threads during this, yet he lacks the ability to learn impulse control to mask the "overt narcissism"? He can control his narcissistic impulse right now to not close threads like these, this is a month old, but he cannot learn impulse control for what he's regularly publicly derided about, but he allows the public derision that he can end with the swipe of a mouse, an impulse that you're now saying he's unaware of?

Edited 4 hours ago by Elliott

[integral]

44 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@integral This is really cool ! What are the colours pertaining too?

Oh the colors are just spiral Dynamics, but they have slightly different names because they're part of Ken wilbers integral model.

Teal = green+

Amber = blue lmfao (leo)

Thats why i said its wrong. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@integral Gotcha - it only has a snapshot contextually. With more data it might be different.

Which rolls back to the narcissism armchair therapist talking point...  

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, Elliott said:

This makes it MUCH muddier to me, it appears to me to be obviously incoherent. So, you think Leo subconsciously wants approval yet he can consciously override his subconscious narcissism that he's unaware of, to allow threads like this on his forum? Yet he does not override his "overt narcissism", that he's regularly publicly derided about, on his forum, where he allows the derision. He has the control to stand here and take this, he's been posting in other threads during this, yet he lacks the ability to learn impulse control to mask the "overt narcissism"? He can control his narcissistic impulse right now to not close threads like these, this is a month old, but he cannot learn impulse control for what he's regularly publicly derided about, but he allows the public derision that he can end with the swipe of a mouse?

Oh, Elliot out here trying to convince us that a guy who literally thinks he is the most conscious being in the entire universe is not a narcissist.

Narcissism does not mean not tolerating disagreement. It's more means not tolerating not being superior or dominant. If Leo values open discussion and seeing himself as a reasonable person open to critique (and perhaps like he is not a cult leader, who would close all critical threads), he will do that and it's perfectly consistent with narcissism. The problem would more occur if you were challenge him on any of those things. But then again, if he values people challenging him, then he may allow that, but inside he could believe he is still superior (and he may tell it right to your face).

Narcissism becomes tricky at higher levels of cognitive development (like all things do, where things become nuanced and complex). Max Karson (Mr. Girl) is another example. He will come off as extremely reasonable and open. But there is also an extreme grandiosity in how he conducts himself.

Edited 3 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Elliott]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Oh, Elliot out here trying to convince us that a guy who literally thinks he is the most conscious being in the entire universe is not a narcissist.

Narcissism does not mean not tolerating disagreement. It's more means not tolerating not being superior or dominant. If Leo values open discussion and seeing himself as a reasonable person open to critique (and perhaps like he is not a cult leader, who would close all critical threads), he will do that and it's perfectly consistent with narcissism. The problem would more occur if you were challenge him on any of those things. But then again, if he values people challenging him, then he may allow that, but inside he could believe he is still superior (and he may tell it right to your face).

Narcissism becomes tricky at higher levels of cognitive development (like all things do, where things become nuanced and complex). Max Karson (Mr. Girl) is another example. He will come off as extremely reasonable and open. But there is also an extreme grandiosity in how he conducts himself.

Oh Carl, out here strawmanning my post. My post is about Joshes argument.

There's no way you can know he's a narcissist. You mastered in psychology right? I can't believe you're condoning this haphazard accusation.

 

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Oh Carl, out here strawmanning my post. My post is about Joshes argument.

Don't mind me "strawmanning" the classic lost-in-irrelevant-minutia line of argumentation that was titrated out of your initial question "would a narcissist leave a thread like this open?". The answer to that question is "yes".

 

14 minutes ago, Elliott said:

There's no way you can know he's a narcissist. You mastered in psychology right? I can't believe you're condoning this haphazard accusation.

There is no way you can know anything at all in the entire universe, except that Leo is the most awake being the entire universe of course, and that this is the single most obvious sign of grandiosity in the entire universe. But yes, thank you for reminding me that we are not inside a psychologist's office.

Edited 3 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Elliott]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

There is no way you can know anything at all in the entire universe, except that Leo is the most awake being the entire universe of course, and that this is the single most obvious sign of grandiosity in the entire universe. But yes, thank you for reminding me that we are not inside a psychologist's office.

More strawmanning, I mean in the normal sense of knowing, like a psychologist would know. You're being strangely flippant on this topic. Sadghuru is still categorically not a charlatan right?

[Elliott]

@Carl-Richard Are you sure this isn't about resentment on your part toward Leo? A 'never meet your heroes' sort of situation?

Edited 2 hours ago by Elliott

[Joshe]

@Elliott Just to clarify, when I use "overt narcissism", I don't mean it's always visible. What I mean is that it's there and his behavioral patterns spell it out clearly. If you don't bother to see the patterns, then it won't be obvious to you. If you look objectively, and if you have a mediocre understanding of psychology, and if you know how to put 2 and 2 together, it seems to me you should see it clearly. Maybe that's a bar too high for some, IDK, but to me, it's so obviously true it feels weird to even explain that it is. 

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

So, you think Leo subconsciously wants approval yet he can consciously override his subconscious narcissism that he's unaware of, to allow threads like this on his forum?

I feel like you're looking at narcissism like it generally presents the same way without much variation. What do you think narcissism looks like in an intelligent person? Take 10 different narcs, each with a different level of intelligence. They'll all have different tactics. The more sophisticated ones will have far more advanced tactics than your run-of-the-mill crude narcissist, obviously.

I've already explained what I think is the likely explanation for why this is allowed. 

Just because you can't know if someone you've watched for 10 years over the internet is a narc, doesn't mean others can't. The same way you know that Trump is a narc is the same way I know Leo is a narc. 

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, Elliott said:

More strawmanning, I mean in the normal sense of knowing, like a psychologist would know.

As I said, we're not in a psychologist office. Nobody is laying on a chair. We're just shooting the shit. If you can't register grandiosity on your personal non-professional non-on-the-job-psychologist symptom chart, then fine, us others can.

 

12 minutes ago, Elliott said:

You're being strangely flippant on this topic. Sadghuru is still categorically not a charlatan right?

This is the Elliot and Wilhelm playbook of forum interactions: enter a thread while having no prior overarching principles on the topic, ask a question about a highly minute point, play logic roulette until the point gets refuted, and move on the next minute point, repeat ad nauseum.

I'm being flippant the way an elephant flips its ears with its photographic memory.

Perhaps I'm being a bit extra spicy today, yes.

Edited 2 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Elliott]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

As I said, we're not in a psychologist office. Nobody is laying on a chair. We're just shooting the shit. If you can't register grandiosity on your personal non-professional non-psychologist symptom chart, then fine, us others can.

 

This is the Elliot and Wilhelm playbook of forum interactions: enter a thread while having no prior overarching principles on the topic, ask a question about a highly minute point, play logic roulette until the point gets refuted, and move on the next minute point, repeat ad nauseum.

I'm being flippant the way an elephant flips its ears with its photographic memory.

Perhaps I'm being a bit extra spicy today, yes.

Grandiosity is not narcissism, especially on the internet......

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Elliott said:

Grandiosity is not narcissism, especially on the internet......

Do the ChatGPT response already, we have been dry on AI slop in this thread for the last half an hour.

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@Elliott Just to clarify, when I use "overt narcissism", I don't mean it's always visible. What I mean is that it's there and his behavioral patterns spell it out clearly. If you don't bother to see the patterns, then it won't be obvious to you. If you look objectively, and if you have a mediocre understanding of psychology, and if you know how to put 2 and 2 together, it seems to me you should see it clearly. Maybe that's a bar too high for some, IDK, but to me, it's so obviously true it feels weird to even explain that it is. 

I feel like you're looking at narcissism like it generally presents the same way without much variation. What do you think narcissism looks like in an intelligent person? Take 10 different narcs, each with a different level of intelligence. They'll all have different tactics. The more sophisticated ones will have far more advanced tactics than your run-of-the-mill crude narcissist, obviously.

I've already explained what I think is the likely explanation for why this is allowed. 

Just because you can't know if someone you've watched for 10 years over the internet is a narc, doesn't mean others can't. The same way you know that Trump is a narc is the same way I know Leo is a narc. 

We see trump in much more than one online wild forum, we have decades of crime and real life behavior documented.

I know you're very intelligent, by the following I don't mean that you're exhibiting the dunning-kreuger effect, but what you're posting is.

[Elliott]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do the ChatGPT response already, we have been dry on AI slop in this thread for the last half an hour.

I have never posted an AI response, you've said this before, I never posted an ai response in my life. 

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Elliott said:

I have never posted an AI response, you've said this before, I never posted an ai response in my life. 

Do it then, you're missing out.

[Elliott]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Do it then, you're missing out.

Glazed right over my other question Mr.Psych......

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Elliott said:

Glazed right over my other question Mr.Psych......

I'm sorry, sometimes the method of forum interaction I described makes your responses go under the radar.

[Elliott]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

I'm sorry, sometimes the method of forum interaction I described makes your responses go under the radar.

Yes yes, sure sure

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, Elliott said:

@Carl-Richard Are you sure this isn't about resentment on your part toward Leo? A 'never meet your heroes' sort of situation?

What do you mean exactly? 🙂