The obstacle for real meditation

[Breakingthewall]

The main factor that makes real meditation impossible is the need for self-definition, for identification. This need is inherent to the human being; it is a mechanism of social cohesion that allows the group to function as a single entity.

Real meditation is not achieved through techniques, but through stepping out of the psychological matrix of identity. The real work is not in the practice of meditation, but in self-exposure, coherence, and integrity. Loyalty to yourself as absolute value. 

When the psychological axis shifts from the need for self-definition and validation to integrity and transparency, the mind becomes silent. Only then does meditation make sense, as one gains access to the primordial layers of the psyche: the drive for permanence, the fear of harm and disappearance, the need for control and other bases of the human psyche 

Directly perceiving these underlying patterns is what eventually allows the psyche to open. “Openness” means the absence of limits. Limits define, and create a sense of control and security. The absence of limits is initially terrifying, unsustainable for more than a few seconds. The system automatically contracts again.

Anyone seeking liberation must seek this rupture. At some point, it becomes more tolerable, until it is perceived as freedom. Identity is then replaced by effortless openness, as it is revealed to be a mental process. not false, but not fundamental, not absolute.

Openness is not an “open mind,” but the fact of being perceiving itself without mental limitations. It is something simple and, at the same time, complete. Not definable because there are not limits. 

This is the state where life becomes beauty, perception becomes deep and the heart becomes open. 

[Davino]

Insightful, thanks for sharing

[Someone here]

Another issue is that meditation is based on quieting the “monkey mind” and its constant chatter.. or at least being able to observe the mind from a third-person perspective ..as if there is literally a monkey blabbering inside your head..and you create distance between that monkey (the mind) and yourself as awareness.

The problem is that we are so accustomed to identifying with the mind that we believe the voice in our head is important. But when you try to silence or calm the mind..it often grows a hundred times stronger and more chaotic.

This is especially true for me because I’m addicted to stimulation ..constantly doing something like listening to music or playing video games in my spare time. Because of that I struggle with insomnia. It’s difficult for me to lie in bed in complete silence and darkness without being occupied by something.

I need to cut certain habits from my life and start living more meditatively.

 

[Grateful Dead]

Yes, once the mechanism of the ego is seen through, meditation becomes effortless and natural.

I think a major obstacle is our understanding of time, the idea that we have to meditate for longer than a moment. If you consider the present moment as the entirety of time, the need to meditate longer than now disappears.

Sometimes my mind is very quiet during meditation, and sometimes not, that doesn't make much difference to me. I let my mind be as it is and don't try to change it, revealing a stillness that is already present, independent of whether the mind is active or quiet.

[gettoefl]

Meditation is stepping outside the imagined reality - which is quite simply my interpretation. The mind itself doesn’t switch on and off; it keeps moving, but my one freedom is to not follow its meanings. I then see what is arising without adding anything to it. In that moment, identity loosens, because identity is nothing but added meaning held in place. I don't seek to stop thoughts, but to stop being the one they are about. For example, if the thought “I am anxious” appears, I notice that as a movement in awareness, not as a statement about what I am. I don’t engage or correct it, just subtract what was added. Then I return to the simple recognition: nothing missing is what makes nothing separate.

[No1Here2c]

The greatest obstacle to my mediation that crops up would be a lack of interest in my Direct Experience.

Pretty interesting if you ask me...

If you do not find great fascination & intrigue in your Consciousness while meditating you are performing the procedure incorrectly.

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

The greatest obstacle to my mediation that crops up would be a lack of interest in my Direct Experience.

 

What do you mean with lack of interest in your direct experience? 

11 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

you do not find great fascination & intrigue in your Consciousness while meditating you are performing the procedure incorrectly.

Sure you must want to perceive as deep as you can, but not conceptually or structured ideas but see the process that are happening now. To be able to start to see those processes you should empty your mind of ideas easily 

 

[Breakingthewall]

45 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Meditation is stepping outside the imagined reality - which is quite simply my interpretation. The mind itself doesn’t switch on and off; it keeps moving, but my one freedom is to not follow its meanings. I then see what is arising without adding anything to it. In that moment, identity loosens, because identity is nothing but added meaning held in place. I don't seek to stop thoughts, but to stop being the one they are about. For example, if the thought “I am anxious” appears, I notice that as a movement in awareness, not as a statement about what I am. I don’t engage or correct it, just subtract what was added. Then I return to the simple recognition: nothing missing is what makes nothing separate.

Imo If you are really detached of your thoughts they stop. Thoughts don't appear and you follow or don't follow them, thoughts are you in the form of a thought. If a thought appears it's because you create that structure because you need it. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

Yes, once the mechanism of the ego is seen through, meditation becomes effortless and natural.

I think a major obstacle is our understanding of time, the idea that we have to meditate for longer than a moment. If you consider the present moment as the entirety of time, the need to meditate longer than now disappears.

Sometimes my mind is very quiet during meditation, and sometimes not, that doesn't make much difference to me. I let my mind be as it is and don't try to change it, revealing a stillness that is already present, independent of whether the mind is active or quiet.

As I see it, having a completely silent mind doesn't necessarily mean the meditation is as deep as it could. The barriers the mind creates by default manifest not only in thoughts but also in contraction, closure, separation. This contraction is primarily fear, and this fear exists because reality is, in many ways, a real threat.

For me, the difficult part is getting that barrier made of fear to dissolve. Being totally present is a point, really it's the state that should be by default, but the dissolution of the barrier is a challenge, not easy at all for me. Even if I'm totally aware of it, it persist 

Edited 5 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[No1Here2c]

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What do you mean with lack of interest in your direct experience? 

A lack of physical/cognitive/spiritual investment in the understanding of existence.

The goal of meditation should not always be an empty mind.

[No1Here2c]

lets investigate.

Investigate the process of investigation?

What exactly is investigation?

How does investigation of internal experience work?

How does mindful witnessing work?

How does observation differ from pulling on the strings?

how does clarity influence the ability to silently observe from ones own 'center of awareness'?

what is Conscious Awareness?

How does Conscious Awareness work?

Is Conscious Awareness always open & fluid as if undergoing a psychedelic trip?

Even so if the illusion presented claims otherwise?

Freedom Absolute?

what is Freedom?

What is an Absolute?

how does Consciousness know Itself?

Does Consciousness have the capacities to know Itself?

[gettoefl]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Imo If you are really detached of your thoughts they stop. Thoughts don't appear and you follow or don't follow them, thoughts are you in the form of a thought. If a thought appears it's because you create that structure because you need it. 

 

I get what you’re pointing to, but I see it slightly differently.

It still seems like there’s a “you” that is either creating thoughts or stopping them. In my experience, thoughts don’t need to be controlled or explained that way. They just emerge.

The key shift for me isn’t whether thoughts arise or not, but whether I take them personally and give them meaning about who I am.

So if the thought  “I’m anxious” appears, it’s not something I created or something I need to push away. It’s just something arising in awareness.

My practice is more like: not adding more to it, not building identity from it, and letting it pass on without interpretation.

When I don’t add meaning, things naturally loosen. This is not because I made them stop, but because nothing is being held onto.

So it’s less about controlling thoughts, and more about not taking them as a “me.”

What I find is, when nothing is taken personally, then nothing is truly separate.

[No1Here2c]

Thoughts are a Valuable Tool!

Utilize all the Tools Available in Consciousness work!

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

In my experience, thoughts don’t need to be controlled or explained that way. They just emerge.

The key shift for me isn’t whether thoughts arise or not, but whether I take them personally and give them meaning about who I am.

Yes, that's what's usually said when talking about meditation, but I see a separation there between you and your thoughts that will always close you off, create a limit. There isn't a separate "you" that observes the thoughts and decides whether to take them seriously or not; rather, that "you" that seems to observe the thoughts is part of the mental process.

The key is to dissolve the separation between you and your thoughts. If the thought "I am anxious" arises, as you said, it's because the emotional structure that you are right now is manifesting as that thought. The fact that you try to ignore it is also part of how that emotional structure manifests, and it won't take you out of the process.

The key is to be fully aware of yourself as an emotional structure, to perceive how you are vibrating right now, your subconscious fears. To make the subconscious fully conscious. Thoughts are not the cause but the consequence.

If I think, "Oh shit, I could get sick and die," trying to ignore that thought will only increase the gap between the apparent center that believes it's in control and your reality as a whole, which is expressed in that thought.

The key is to enter the emotional current that causes that thought to arise, to look directly at the fear of death, rejection, and loneliness, without a filter. Then you see that mental activity is the expression of that emotional structure, which also includes creative desire, openness to life and others, and a desire for deep and real connection with others and life. If you don't look directly at the yin, the yang remains dormant, buried.

If you look your fears without filter, eventually you will integrate them little by little, then in some moments your mental/emotional structure gets totally aligned and limits fall. It's useless to try to evoque being unlimited being limited because, precisely, you are limited. Then you would construct a limited version.

Edited 3 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, No1Here2c said:

Thoughts are a Valuable Tool!

Utilize all the Tools Available in Consciousness work!

Yes, any conversation, like this one, is made by thoughts. Thoughts are the structured expression of what we are, then it's very important to be able to understand clear where our thoughts come from and how they are a tool of closure or openess. For example, it's important to see in oneself if the flow of thoughts is defensive, oriented to keep a self image and transmit it to others, or open, oriented to expression of the reality that you are without filter. Also, oriented to real understanding or to defend some structures that your psyche needs for it's stability. 

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, that's what's usually said when talking about meditation, but I see a separation there between you and your thoughts that will always close you off, create a limit. There isn't a separate "you" that observes the thoughts and decides whether to take them seriously or not; rather, that "you" that seems to observe the thoughts is part of the mental process.

The key is to dissolve the separation between you and your thoughts. If the thought "I am anxious" arises, as you said, it's because the emotional structure that you are right now is manifesting as that thought. The fact that you try to ignore it is also part of how that emotional structure manifests, and it won't take you out of the process.

The key is to be fully aware of yourself as an emotional structure, to perceive how you are vibrating right now, your subconscious fears. To make the subconscious fully conscious. Thoughts are not the cause but the consequence.

If I think, "Oh shit, I could get sick and die," trying to ignore that thought will only increase the gap between the apparent center that believes it's in control and your reality as a whole, which is expressed in that thought.

The key is to enter the emotional current that causes that thought to arise, to look directly at the fear of death, rejection, and loneliness, without a filter. Then you see that mental activity is the expression of that emotional structure, which also includes creative desire, openness to life and others, and a desire for deep and real connection with others and life. If you don't look directly at the yin, the yang remains dormant, buried.

If you look your fears without filter, eventually you will integrate them little by little, then in some moments your mental/emotional structure gets totally aligned and limits fall. It's useless to try to evoque being unlimited being limited because, precisely, you are limited. Then you would construct a limited version.

I actually agree with the majority of what you’re saying here, in particular that there isn’t a separate “controller” self managing thoughts. That part resonates. Where I see it slightly differently is this:

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I’m not seeking to create a separation between “me” and thoughts. I’m instead questioning whether the self that seems to be inside the thoughts is what I really am.

So when a thought like “I am anxious” appears, I’m not ignoring it or suppressing it. And I’m also not trying to replace it. I’m just noticing:

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the sense of “me” in this thought is part of the thought itself.

 

In other words:

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the “observer me” and the “anxious me” are both appearances within something more basic, namely awareness itself.

 

So the shift isn’t:

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“I, the observer, am going to detach from thoughts” 

and also not:

“I am the emotional/thought structure” 

 

But more like:

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both the thoughts and the sense of self are arising in awareness, and neither of them defines what I am.

 

On the emotional side, again we agree that fear, contraction, etc. can be felt directly. That’s important. But even there, the practice is:

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I feel it without turning it into identity.

 

So instead of:

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“this fear is something about me”

 

it becomes:

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fear is present, and fully felt, but not what I am.

 

And interestingly, that doesn’t suppress anything. It actually allows it more fully, because nothing is being resisted or claimed.

So for me, meditation isn’t about controlling thoughts or dissolving into them, but instead:

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ceasing the misidentification with whatever is arising, whether it be thought, emotion, or the very sense of self itself.

 

Not by force, just by seeing clearly:

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all of it is arriving and departing, yet what I am doesn’t come and go with it.