Anger is not always wrong

[martin_malin]

Anger is never justified. But you don't get there by telling yourself this or by repressing it. 

[Carl-Richard]

18 hours ago, Eskilon said:

That seems to be a projection of your state of consciousness on the infant. The infant does not have a self at that age, how can it be angry?

It makes a higher amount of angry expressions in response to a failed/blocked goal compared to a fulfilled goal is what they found in that 2006 study. You're maybe underestimating the complexity of 4-month-old cognition (they can orient their attention, move, grab things) and also that evolutionarily speaking, the self occurred later (way later, millions of years) than emotions. This tracks with the evolution of the cortex "out from" what we today consider the limbic structures.

 

18 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Again, is a cell angry?

I've argued that cells could have behavioral modes that resemble anger (energy that faciliates breaking through a blockade or boundary), but that would of course not be mediated by a limbic system as in humans. But I guess the question you can ask is are most animals capable of anger?

What humans do with their self-reflective ability is they reflect and magnify and echo and reverberate emotional states, such that emotional states can trigger other emotional states through interaction with thought and interpretation. That doesn't mean the emotions are necessarily always born from the reflective capacity. They just often tend to occur in conjuction with them.

Edited 4 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Human Mint said:

I don't know, what's the difference?

Frustration typically is less intense: arises from something blocking a goal or expectations. Mild. Thoughts arise coupled with the feeling typically 'this situation isn't working'. It's internal and is simmers. It's a discernment 

Anger is stronger more charged response to something perceived as wrong, unfair or threatening. Causes can be accumulated frustration, injustice, hurt, disrespect etc stronger and more explosive. More likely to be expressed outwardly, sometimes aggressively. It is usually a judgement related emotion. Focus 'someone / situation is wrong'.

[Eskilon]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

the self occurred later (way later, millions of years) than emotions.

So you say that emotions are more fundamental than self?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

36 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

So you say that emotions are more fundamental than self?

Might be meaning feelings - but I am only guessing. Emotions and feelings are different. But it's going to depend how terms are defined.

In my worldview feelings are direct raw subjective experience. Emotions are more a structured psycho-biological pattern involving feeling, interpretation, physiology, impulse and meaning. 

Some people even bring affect into this mix - which would be a pre-conceptual energetic tone. 

This is getting complex because we are hitting a strange roadblock : at what level of consciou awareness does a sense of 'self' arise? And how exactly are we defining the self as it applies here? 

Edited 10 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Eskilon said:

So you say that emotions are more fundamental than self?

I mean, the self-aware self in humans arose as far as we can tell only between 30-70k years ago. There weren't even any anatomical changes attributed to the change. It's quite mysterious how it happened.

So if there were no salient anatomical differences between pre-self-aware humans and self-aware humans, do you think pre-self-aware humans had emotions or not? Imagine talking to (I guess they didn't have complex language yet) or meeting such a human. Do you think they would show signs of anger, fear, disgust, happiness, sadness?

How do you know a person is angry? They will show it to you. Look at any animal, perhaps mammals are the best examples, e.g. a cat or a tiger. Are you going to tell me you've never seen an angry cat? "But antropomorphizing". Really? What about a growling bear, or a growling chimpanzee, or a growling... human.

 

"Lol, calm down bro".

Edited 4 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

 This is getting complex because we are hitting a strange roadblock : at what level of consciou awareness does a sense of 'self' arise? And how exactly are we defining the self as it applies here? 

If you can imagine experiencing anything in a pre-self-reflective state, be it gripping a ball, or feeling pain or any sensation localized to your body, what stops you from imagining experiencing an emotion?

What self-reflection seems to do (among other things) is it ties the experience to an abstract experience of "me". But so it does with anything else. It's "me" who is gripping the ball, it's "me" who is experiencing pain or any sensation in the body. But what if you can have just the experience of gripping the ball, just the experience of pain and other bodily sensations, or just the experience of feeling and being moved by the emotion?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you can imagine experiencing anything in a pre-self-reflective state, be it gripping a ball, or feeling pain or any sensation localized to your body, what stops you from imagining experiencing an emotion?

What self-reflection seems to do (among other things) is it ties the experience to an abstract experience of "me". But so it does with anything else. It's "me" who is gripping the ball, it's "me" who is experiencing pain or any sensation in the body. But what if you can have just the experience of gripping the ball, just the experience of pain and other bodily sensations, or just the experience of feeling and being moved by the emotion?

I think this is the cusp of where desire/aversion begins to colour emotional landscapes - and invite a whole host of other emotions to arise codependently with feelings and thoughts.

Overall, I feel like I am not certain about anything on the topic. 

[Human Mint]

12 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Frustration typically is less intense: arises from something blocking a goal or expectations. Mild. Thoughts arise coupled with the feeling typically 'this situation isn't working'. It's internal and is simmers. It's a discernment 

Anger is stronger more charged response to something perceived as wrong, unfair or threatening. Causes can be accumulated frustration, injustice, hurt, disrespect etc stronger and more explosive. More likely to be expressed outwardly, sometimes aggressively. It is usually a judgement related emotion. Focus 'someone / situation is wrong'.

Nice, thank you. I definitely don't discriminate emotions that much. Although kids definitely get angry a lot (and frustrated, jealous or sad). Try stealing a candy out of their hands and they will punch you.

Edited 2 hours ago by Human Mint