Anger is not always wrong

[No1Here2c]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

Is there any other way besides direct experience?

All of the reactions I find in my direct experience regarding anger appear to arise directly as a function of ego, hurt, and defensiveness. How could I find any other source?

I doubt you know the way, it seems you have no explanation.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Could one have anger that doesn't result from attachment to ego or the self?

In my understanding most of what people think is anger arises from another base - fear (and its associated emotions).

Fear is the delusion of the self/ego.

Many adore delving into intellectual / thought pursuits - and refuse to even investigate feelings and emotions. I believe anger is used as a loose term for a whole host of emotions and feelings many do not have nuance in detecting and expounding on (and that aren't in fact anger at all, when we inspect them closely). I do not know many who delve into their inner emotional world and approach feelings and emotions from an ontological lens. Prefacing that! - it could be simply the bias on this forum

I think to proceed further we must dive into anger and how we each define it - I think this could be where confusion lies.

Pure anger, in my worldview, phenomenologically often contains; aggression, aversion, heat, attack energy and a desire to push/resist/destroy the obstacle.

Fear, urgency, protectiveness, moral clarity, frustration, upset, grief, consternation, confusion, nervous system activation, assertiveness, sadness, anxiety, shame, embarrassment, overwhelm, hunger, exhaustion, pain or discomfort. All of these sensations, feelings and emotions can act as a base for anger to arise from, or be wrongly mislabelled as anger. And I witness in my experience and would argue most people mislabel all of these complex, subtle contractions as anger.

Passive aggressive behaviour arises from hidden forms of anger like sarcasm, deliberate procrastination or being chronically late. Oppositional defiant type behaviours. Self harm behaviours can also be another result of anger.

Anger is NOT: clear perception, discernment, decisive action, fierce compassion, boundary enforcement. These all exist without the psychological contraction of anger. For example: I present an awakened teacher sharply correcting someone. This may externally resemble anger, but internally there may be no hatred, resentment, wounded pride, or personal grievance. Just clean intensity without aggression, attack or any desire to push/destroy etc.

Moving toward the Buddhist type framing - Can there be aversion without a self-structure organising it?

Edited Wednesday at 11:35 PM by Natasha Tori Maru

[No1Here2c]

What is the exact difference between anger & frustration?

Why do they feel so closely linked in my experience?

What exactly is hate?

Is hate a form of anger or frustration?

What is malice?

Is malice distinct from or same as hate? anger? or frustration?

What is the ultimate root of all these?

Are these compounding & exponential?

Or do they typically resolve themselves?

What are the exact fine distinctions and nuanced relationships between these?

What is the subtle, or not so subtle, experiential difference between these forms?

Is all malevolence driven by these?

Or is malevolence relative to ego perspective, in having something to defend/attack?

Better question to frame, is all malicious intent driven by these forms?

Does ego often cover up malicious intent as righteousness or 'good doing'?

I can intuit that there is good reason ego doesnt like to look here

What is the reason for ego to avoid this internal investigation?

How do these forms express externally?

How do these forms express internally?

Why do these 'negative' emotions feel distinctly unlovable?

What exactly is negative about these?

What is negativity itself?

A form of ego defense?

What purpose does negativity serve in defending the ego?

Is negativity a gross abstraction?

If so, why do specific associated emotions arise in its name? What is the exactly ego defense purpose of these specific emotions?

Why are these emotions largely unconscious? completely uncomfortable, and reacted to without question?

This must serve a survival role?

What is the exact survival role of these emotions?

Why are these emotions much harder to master & control than other variety of internal feeling? 

Like explosive wildfire which alights anything it touches? Lingering far long after the designated source dissipates from direct experience? The smoldering kindles so easy to reignite, set ablaze as a raging inferno?

But seriously what is the source?

What is the purpose?

Why these forms exist at all?

Does hate seem to reflect back upon itself such that it cannot even be effectively investigated?

What is the cognitive/emotional firewall within awareness that does not allow for proper investigation here?

Ego functioning as intended?

So as not to set itself ablaze?

I cannot seem to locate a direct source

I can claim ego, I can Intuitively feel self is the source, but I cannot find in direct conscious awareness a root cause. These emotions seem to always linger subconsciously. It is not until something triggers them that they rise to the surface, & then I can claim that that something is the source. But really the source is inside somewhere, ego has a sleight of hand way of placing blame externally. What is the exact internal origin?

Edited yesterday at 12:32 AM by No1Here2c

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

What is the exact difference between anger & frustration?

Why do they feel so closely linked in my experience?

What exactly is hate?

Is hate a form of anger or frustration?

What is malice?

Is malice distinct from or same as hate? anger? or frustration?

All the best questions IMO. 

We love contemplating the ontology of a cup, but won't touch an emotion or feeling.

All contractions of different forms.

I practice extensive body scanning when investigating emotions and feelings.

Edited Wednesday at 11:53 PM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Carl-Richard]

On 13.5.2026 at 7:55 PM, Eskilon said:

The notion that anger comes from outside the ego is really funny. People sure like to twist things lol

Infinite self-deception.

Anger can be pre-egoic (if the ego is a self-aware identity).

Quote

Anger in response to blocked goals emerges early in development and can be seen in infants as young as 4 months of age (Izard et al., 1995; Lewis, Ramsay, & Sullivan, 2006).

 

The way anger decreases as "consciousness" increases is that you identify with whatever is happening so that becomes your goal (or you perceive the circumstances with such fidelity that everything is expected and understood as part of the process to the goal) and therefore anger doesn't actually arise when so called "bad things" happen. Everything is supposed to happen.

And you can also have anger arise and have the awareness to deal with it in the way you like (re-interpreting it, not reacting to it, or externalizing it the way the emotion is intended).

People who have anger issues typically have a lack of control mechanisms, lack of awareness, of their internal state and outside affairs. They simply perceive everything as an obstacle to their goals, or they have such narrow goals or narrow perception of their goals that everything stands in opposition to those goals, so anger arises frequently, and they lack the control mechanisms to deal with the anger so they express it intuitively/compulsively without thinking about it, so they externalize anger frequently in an unfiltered and unthinking way.

The jump from Tier 1 to Tier 2 is marked by a marked decrease in anger. You understand more, you see how it's a part of the larger picture, you identify more with all kinds of people, their anger, their lack of awareness, their goals are accommodated with your goals, their anger and lack of awareness is ultimately not seen as an obstacle to your goals (because you see them as a part of the process to the higher goals).

[Eskilon]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Anger in response to blocked goals emerges early in development and can be seen in infants as young as 4 months of age (Izard et al., 1995; Lewis, Ramsay, & Sullivan, 2006).

What kind of goal could a 4 months of age infant have？

Unless you consider basic instincts and bodily impulses as goals I don't see how could they have anger.

Maybe they are just reacting instinctively in their biological programming. They are just automatons at their stage, not enough consciousness to have anger. Just like a cell doesn't have enough awareness to have anger.

Anger might be an experience that you need sufficient consciousness to have.

Edited 19 hours ago by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Anger might be an experience that you need sufficient consciousness to have.

My brain is rubbing your brain with this one

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Eskilon said:

What kind of goal could a 4 months of age infant have？

Unless you consider basic instincts and bodily impulses as goals I don't see how could they have anger.

Maybe they are just reacting instinctively in their biological programming. They are just automatons at their stage, not enough consciousness to have anger. Just like a cell doesn't have enough awareness to have anger.

Anger might be an experience that you need sufficient consciousness to have.

Bodily movement that involves coordination is goal-oriented. Most 4-month-olds can hold objects. Closing your fist around an object and holding it involves coordination. The goal is to hold the object. If the 4-month-old fails in that goal, that could be a source of anger.

Edited 11 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Bodily movement that involves coordination is goal-oriented. Most 4-month-olds can hold objects. Closing your fist around an object and holding it involves coordination. The goal is to hold the object. If the 4-month-old fails in that goal, that could be a source of anger.

Anger, or anger that arises from frustration? 

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Anger, or anger that arises from frustration? 

I don't know about the nuances here. Anger is frustration on speed dial.

Edited 8 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I don't know about the nuances here. Anger is frustration on speed dial.

Ones innate affect and temperament would definitely effect the rotary switch on anger 

[Human Mint]

15 hours ago, Eskilon said:

What kind of goal could a 4 months of age infant have？

Unless you consider basic instincts and bodily impulses as goals I don't see how could they have anger.

Maybe they are just reacting instinctively in their biological programming. They are just automatons at their stage, not enough consciousness to have anger. Just like a cell doesn't have enough awareness to have anger.

Anger might be an experience that you need sufficient consciousness to have.

You gotta be kidding. Infants are the most angry living beings on earth.

[Eskilon]

42 minutes ago, Human Mint said:

You gotta be kidding. Infants are the most angry living beings on earth.

We just got different definitions on anger ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Eskilon]

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Bodily movement that involves coordination is goal-oriented. Most 4-month-olds can hold objects. Closing your fist around an object and holding it involves coordination. The goal is to hold the object. If the 4-month-old fails in that goal, that could be a source of anger.

That seems to be a projection of your state of consciousness on the infant. The infant does not have a self at that age, how can it be angry?

Again, is a cell angry?

[Human Mint]

40 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

We just got different definitions on anger ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think so. You're differentiating the anger of a child from that of a grown up as if they're different things. You fail to see that is the same emotion.

 

[Human Mint]

Its' easy: a grown up has the ability to be conscious of the anger and act responsibly. A child can't.

[Human Mint]

44 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Again, is a cell angry?

Little cells: "attack this mf!!"