What is best pickup model ?

[AION]

I know it is hard to formalize it but as long as it can be formalized I think the M3 model by mystery is the best. All other models are a cheap rip off. 

So best formalized model is M3 by Mystery. The best technicality with its beginner, middle and end game  

Best informalized model is Owen Cook. He has the best meta physics. 

If you know both you can be deadly. Owen Cook is more difficult to learn because of the share volume of his content it is hard to extract the gold but I did by crunching all of his videos and seminars into a corpus with the help of AI. 

What is your favorite model?

[Sucuk Ekmek]

Hold my beer model is the best one.

[Raze]

I found multiple better models, they are largely forgotten and lesser known.

[Leo Gura]

Mystery is very outdated. You shouldn't even be learning that.

Edited 19 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Raze]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Mystery is very outdated. You shouldn't even be learning that.

His advice was nuanced and ahead of its time in many ways. Some naturals went back and learned it and said their results exploded. 

[AION]

Why Pickup Doesn't Work — Summary

Jeffrey (the presenter, a 23-year veteran dating coach) opens by scrolling past a Mystery clip — Mystery of VH1/The Game fame — still explaining his elaborate A3/IOD/DHV jargon system in 2026. Jeffrey's take is deliberately uncomfortable: the system works. Human psychology didn't get a software update. Curiosity, tension, emotional spikes, qualifying, rapport — none of that changed. The hardware is the same.

So what's the problem?

The Core Diagnosis: Apps Without an Operating System

The early pickup community made a fundamental category error: they packaged performance skills as verbal techniques. Mystery wasn't some bedroom theorist who cracked a code — he was a professional stage magician with thousands of live audience reps before he ever entered a nightclub. He already had stage presence as an underlying substrate. When he ran a routine, it landed because his nervous system was broadcasting: "I'm relaxed, I don't need this to work, I thrive under attention."

The guy watching at 2am memorizing the same lines? His nervous system is broadcasting: "Please love me. Please don't reject me." And people feel that signal before they even process the words. They don't analyze it consciously — they just feel "nope."

Jeffrey calls this the "uncanny valley of charisma": close enough to the real thing to register as slightly creepy, not close enough to land. There's a half-second latency between the person and the persona they're performing, and that gap is felt immediately.

The OGs never consciously built presence either — they accrued it through tens of thousands of pressure reps. They were teaching the apps. Nobody was installing the operating system, which is presence.

What Presence Actually Means

Presence here isn't a mystical concept — it's embodied congruence. The body is stable, the signal is clean, and what comes out matches what's underneath. Jeffrey's formula:

State → Signal → Behavior → Words

When your nervous system is stable, the techniques hit. When it collapses under social pressure, everything feels like "punching in a dream" — slow, heavy, ineffective. Biology, he argues, is always running one check in every interaction: congruence. Is this person actually here? In a world saturated with synthetic experience, genuine presence is increasingly rare and therefore disproportionately magnetic.

Why It's Worse Now

Jeffrey identifies two compounding factors that have made the presence gap much wider than it was 20 years ago:

1. Algorithmic attention fragmentation. Modern social media platforms are highly engineered systems that know your nervous system better than you do. They never give you full satisfaction — just enough stimulation to keep scrolling. This systematically erodes the capacity for sustained, embodied attention, which is precisely the substrate presence is built on.

2. Social rep starvation + identity fragmentation. COVID lockdowns wiped out social reps and people never fully returned. On top of that, most people are now running 4-5 simultaneous selves (online self, professional self, dating self, etc.). Every context switch burns energy. By the time you walk into a real venue, you're already depleted. The body responds by going into a low-grade survival mode — shallow breath, chest tightening, system contracting inward — which kills the signal before a word is even spoken.

The Performance Addiction Problem

Jeffrey distinguishes two types of performance addiction. His own — loving attention, thriving in front of a crowd — is generative. The kind most guys have is defensive: performing a sanitized, "safe" character to avoid rejection. This is driven by a hollowed-out nervous system that has learned over thousands of micro-moments of self-suppression to simply stop showing up. You get an impulse to speak or approach, your internal monitoring system evaluates it for social risk, and before it can live — you kill it. Repeat that thousands of times and the system stops generating impulses at all.

Analysis during the process is specifically identified as the kill shot: monitoring your own words mid-sentence, modeling how you look, micromanaging others' perceptions of you, running internal commentary while simultaneously talking. That kills the signal immediately.

The Conclusion

You don't have a charisma problem. You have a nervous system calibration problem and a learned performance addiction. The techniques aren't the issue and never were — they were always pointing at what lies underneath them. Once the underlying state is stable and the signal is clean, the techniques function like steroids on an already-working foundation. Without it, you're loading software onto a crashed machine.

The real question, he closes with, was never what do I say — it was always: can you hold the moment when it turns toward you, and not blink?

[AION]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Mystery is very outdated. You shouldn't even be learning that.

Every model has its pro´s and cons. The best is to learn from multiple teachers. Mystery works for me now because I can be autistic sometimes it helps me to move things forward and plan things forward. It also helped to iron out some of my flaws, like first get IOI before giving IOI and stuff. Most teachers don´t explicate that.

So how is it outdated. This is his model: 

Mystery's M3 Model — Full Sub-Steps

Attract

A1 — Open: Approach the group, not just the target. Overcome approach anxiety, begin DHV signaling

A2 — Female to Male Interest: She becomes curious about you; you've triggered attraction

A3 — Male to Female Interest: Now you show selective interest — but only after qualifying her. She has to earn it

Comfort

C1 — Isolate: Separate her from the group naturally

C2 — Rapport: Deep connection, vulnerability, personal sharing, building genuine trust

C3 — Physical Comfort: Progressive touch escalation, first kiss threshold

Seduction

S1 — Sexual Framing: Shift the frame toward sexual tension explicitly

S2 — Last Minute Resistance: Navigate hesitation without pressure

S3 — Close

[Jannes]

7 hours ago, Raze said:

His advice was nuanced and ahead of its time in many ways. Some naturals went back and learned it and said their results exploded. 

Mysterie is a piece of shit. I read the mysterie method, its about whatever works without morals. He thinks pulling of the biggest manipulation is some kind of awesome hero thing.

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Mysterie is a piece of shit. I read the mysterie method, its about whatever works without morals. He thinks pulling of the biggest manipulation is some kind of awesome hero thing.

Not really. Most of what he says is done by guys who are naturally good with women by default.

[Jannes]

For me the best method is a mix of:

Owen: You need to do lots of approaches to get into state. You feel insecure APPROACH

Julian: Dont think about techniques when doing game

Miguel1: A strong rejection can put you into state

Edited 10 hours ago by Jannes

[Jannes]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

Not really. Most of what he says is done by guys who are naturally good with women by default.

Have you read the book?

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Jannes said:

For me the best method is a mix of:

Owen: You need to do lots of approaches to get into state. You feel insecure APPROACH

Julian: Dont think about techniques when doing game, you can think about it afterwards

Miguel1: A strong rejection can put you into state

That’s just a method for your own mood and a philosophy of learning, not a complete method. Owen and Julien would teach multiple things from mystery. 

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Have you read the book?

Yes. It’s not perfect and is dated in places but it also as high level nuanced concepts and a lot of intelligent technology. That’s actually an issue with it since most people can’t figure it out from a book without being reviewed in person by someone else who was taught it in person or mystery himself. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Raze

[Jannes]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

That’s just a method for your own mood and a philosophy of learning, not a complete method. Owen and Julien would teach multiple things from mystery. 

Yeah true. I find these tipps the most useful though, they push me in the right direction.

[Jannes]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

Yes. It’s not perfect and is dated in places but it also as high level nuanced concepts and a lot of genius. That’s actually an issue with it since most people can’t figure it out from a book without being reviewed in person by someone else who was taught it in person. 

In the beginning he literally describes how he tries to do more and more outragous manipulation and describes himself as some kind of stuntmen, completly full of himself. That was the first bad taste I got from it. 

And then a core of his teaching is that you should give the girl the feeling that this is something special and that there is romantic potential, even if you just want to bang. This puts me off. 

And its also way to complicated, way to much strategy which is counterproductive if you want to let loose. 

I like his levels of physical escalation. But beyond that there is little I found useful. 

[Ramanujan]

what do you guys think of todd v

[AION]

34 minutes ago, Ramanujan said:

what do you guys think of todd v

He is cringe and his methods are cringe. He never talks in his natural voice which makes it very forced.  

[Ramanujan]

@AION is the  course system by todd v also cringe

Edited 9 hours ago by Ramanujan

[AION]

39 minutes ago, Ramanujan said:

@AION is the  course system by todd v also cringe

You should try it out and see if it works for you.  

Edited 9 hours ago by AION

[Ramanujan]

3 hours ago, AION said:

You should try it out and see if it works for you.  

i am a dating noob. i dont have abiliity to judge it . what is your view on system by todd v