depression from being smart

[YIDIRYIDIR]

i need help with some insights on this topic.

i believe "the more smart and aware the more depressed" is true until a certain point. and that certain point is what I'm trying to articulate.

here are my guesses so far: 

• the early version of smart is deconstructing everything, every illusion, every meaning system. that leads to suffering, but that suffering ends or gets better once you start conscious construction
• the more smart and aware you are, the more you move from Orange stage to Green stage, and the moment you jump to tier 2 in spiral dynamics, the construction journey starts
• before, everything was external to you, value system, motivation, meaning. awareness strips you of all that, you end up thinking "nothing is real, nothing matters, so what's the point?" thus leading to depression. you get over that once you develop internal systems of motivation, meaning and values

what are your takes?

[Judy2]

yes, i only read the title and thought, you have to be even smarter to push past that. 

it's probably also about multi-dimensional intelligence that is able to synthesise intellect, emotion, and other factors. 

[YIDIRYIDIR]

13 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

it's probably also about multi-dimensional intelligence 

what do you mean by multidimensional intelligence? you mean holistic? or more specific?

[Judy2]

Just now, YIDIRYIDIR said:

what do you mean by multidimensional intelligence? you mean holistic? or more specific?

yes, holistic.

[UnbornTao]

I wouldn't say that. I think I know where this stance comes from - it is a common trope in pop-culture, and a tempting one to engage in. But look at the source of depression, beyond your intellect. It might be that we are ignorant of the fact that we generate it, and how we're doing that. We might simply use external circumstances as a pretext to abdicate our responsibility.

Why does one get depressed from time to time (excluding some serious physiological imbalance)?

What's going on in what you call the state of being depressed?

Edited 7 hours ago by UnbornTao

[YIDIRYIDIR]

6 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Why does one get depressed from time to time (excluding some serious physiological imbalance)?

What's going on in what you call the state of being depressed?

loss of direction, meaning and clarity. and identity uncertainty. too much uncertainty without clear direction. (there are exceptions, like loss of loved ones, struggle with survival, physiological stuff like you said...) 

[UnbornTao]

17 minutes ago, YIDIRYIDIR said:

loss of direction, meaning and clarity. and identity uncertainty. too much uncertainty without clear direction. (there are exceptions, like loss of loved ones, struggle with survival, physiological stuff like you said...) 

Maybe. But set that aside. I wasn't asking for a plausible, rational explanation or answer. Look into the existence of the depression. It's also possible that you're talking about more than one thing. I'd suggest you get even clearer on what things you're actually referring to. It sounds like you're using depression as a very broad category encompassing other feeling-states.

Regarding depression, for example, how does it relate to time? In relation to what time period does it exist? Now, past, future? What are its components?

Again, something to explore experientially.

And by the way, it seems to me that we tend to conflate identifying something in our experience - labeling it, giving it a name, having a fixed conception around that experience - with being aware of what it is, its nature. I'd be wary of this confusion we often fall into.

[YIDIRYIDIR]

@UnbornTao yed depression is a broad term but understand it in this context.

I'm talking about that nihilistic feeling from being striped from conditioned external systems of meaning and value. you become misunderstood, judged, lonely, can't fit in, and lost and see life as one giant meaningless absurd existance. you know, the stereotypical saying of "ignorance is a blessing" and "awareness hell" 

there's this lame ass quote by Fyodor Dostoevsky that goes: "the more you understand the world, the more you destroy yourself. that's why fools are happy and intelligent people live in loneliness" 

Edited 6 hours ago by YIDIRYIDIR

[integral]

Knowing how to be is a skill separate from developmental stages. 

There are people who know how to be and people who do not.

Some people accept reality some people do not.

Its a mix of genetics and upbringing.

Most people fight every aspect of there lives and complain when anything goes wrong or does not meet expectation.

Inteligent rationalist types stuck in nihilism dont know how to be, they were never good at it even before there realizations, they resisted most things in disgust and had poor mood regulation.

You don't need to deconstruct anything to know how to be. It's a separate skill. But if you don't know how to be then at that point you definitely have to start deconstructing stuff.

Edited 4 hours ago by integral

[YIDIRYIDIR]

@integral nice i love this framing. i always use the mental model of seeing everything as a skill, i guess i didn't apply it on this one 😀 

reflecting back, it really is a skill, but one that is harder for some and easier for others. 

[YIDIRYIDIR]

58 minutes ago, integral said:

Its a mix of genetics and upbringing.

didn't even see this line, it sums it all up.

[Eskilon]

[PolyPeter]

6 hours ago, YIDIRYIDIR said:

you get over that once you develop internal systems of motivation, meaning and values

I think this is partially there

 

What if the highest form of intelligence has to do with the deepest emotional work you can do?

 

What if the exercise that comes towards you, once you understand something intellectualy and conecptually, is of a different kind entirely?

 

Ok, you got an A+ in understanding structure and behaviour

 

now, let's dive deeper into the nature of Being

 

then you realise the emotional work is just as difficult as the intelectual one, and sometimes even more so because it is tied to survival, cultural conditioning, and maybe some specific background of your own 

 

Yes, intelligence can get you depressed, and it takes even more intelligence to realise that you can be smart in different domains at the same time, and that the next level of actualization comes when the integration of the insights becomes a part of your daily life

 

"Oh no, they are behaving in such unconscious manners, if only they knew how things actually worked"....

"They don't even know what I already know"....

 

will eventually develop into something like 

"Consciousness can take up any form within the dream, and because expereience is not just a random set of phenomena and follows a certain localized logic, the dreamed characters and objects will not be ANY, at ANY time. Therefore, the humans that are not operating from the same level of understanding as I might be, are not a mistake or a flaw within the dream, but another way in which consciousness forgot itslef as God, and is playing the game of life with the limitations that are given within that specific character"

of course to come to this level of realisation, one must contemplate deep.

 

Try finding the distinction between "We are just drops of water in an ocean" and "We are the whole ocean in a drop", and I think you'll see what I'm pointing at

 

[YIDIRYIDIR]

18 minutes ago, PolyPeter said:

What if the highest form of intelligence has to do with the deepest emotional work you can do?

what do you mean by emotional work exactly? 

20 minutes ago, PolyPeter said:

"Consciousness can take up any form within the dream, and because expereience is not just a random set of phenomena and follows a certain localized logic, the dreamed characters and objects will not be ANY, at ANY time. Therefore, the humans that are not operating from the same level of understanding as I might be, are not a mistake or a flaw within the dream, but another way in which consciousness forgot itslef as God, and is playing the game of life with the limitations that are given within that specific character"

So metaphysical understanding helps as well? this what i got from this: emotional work and metaphysical understanding.

[YIDIRYIDIR]

49 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

😂😂 bang on

[CARDOZZO]

 Can you be on a depressive happy state?

Teach me how to be depressed. Get specific on the structure of depression then you can break it every time it arises or you just stop doing it.

[YIDIRYIDIR]

@CARDOZZO i mean, you never experienced depression? 

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, YIDIRYIDIR said:

@UnbornTao yed depression is a broad term but understand it in this context.

I'm talking about that nihilistic feeling from being striped from conditioned external systems of meaning and value. you become misunderstood, judged, lonely, can't fit in, and lost and see life as one giant meaningless absurd existance. you know, the stereotypical saying of "ignorance is a blessing" and "awareness hell" 

there's this lame ass quote by Fyodor Dostoevsky that goes: "the more you understand the world, the more you destroy yourself. that's why fools are happy and intelligent people live in loneliness" 

Everyone's lonely. So that's that.

Look into the depression. Focus on what it is and not just the perceived or imagined consequences that it has on you and your life. What is it?

We might think we know what it is because we can identify it - this may not be true. Look into this for yourself.

Edited 1 hour ago by UnbornTao

[CARDOZZO]

48 minutes ago, YIDIRYIDIR said:

@CARDOZZO i mean, you never experienced depression? 

No.

Feeling sad, angry, melancholic - YES. 

Depression is a constant dark feeling states where your life is dominated by loss of energy, motivation, libido, perspective.

[PolyPeter]

1 hour ago, YIDIRYIDIR said:

what do you mean by emotional work exactly? 

Going inside your own self and understanding directly why and how you are creating the depression

8 hours ago, YIDIRYIDIR said:

"nothing is real, nothing matters, so what's the point?"

In this case in particular, there is a fundamental error, It reminds me of this picture

 

I think the distinction that will help you understand the point is the following

 

you can take things as they are

or you can take things as you are

the phrase

"nothing is real, nothing matters, so what's the point" 

points to some very lazy "smart" logical thinking pattern

 

if you investigate closely, we can be confusing two levels

from the point of view of a human:

"nothing is real", usually means what i think is solid, is not, which creates structural instability. 

"nothing matters", would mean the end of purpose, which would create existential instability.

 

of course a human would see this as a threat! it is only obvious when thought through

and it would also apply to the smartest fellas, because this is survival instinct kicking in, not just concepts.

 

But, for a split second, try to imagine what would be the meaning of these same sentences, from the point of view of God, with Infinite Imagination and Infinite mind.

"nothing is real", yes of course, because I make it real, by imaginining the necessary distinctions within me

"nothing matters", no of course, because I precede space, time, energy, and matter. Evolution happens within me, meaning can only arise within the relative domain, I am The Absolute.

 

I think this has to do with the depth of the skepticism being used to understand the implications of things like "nothing is real, nothing matters"

there are no limits to what you can be skeptic about. this is why EVEN skepticism could be questioned! 

when you question skepticism you question the one who questions

 

but upon doing that, you must also be rigourus and skeptic enough there. and try your best to understand WHAT is the nature of that who questions. 

 

And then a step further you can realize this is awareness itself

 

consciousness

 

god

 

but maybe this is too much emotional work for a smart fella to handle,it's already very hard to understand that you are in a dream, imagine how much more difficult it is to accept that you are also the dreamer 🫠

Edited 1 hour ago by PolyPeter