A Disturbing Truth About Spiritual Teachings

[Sincerity]

@UnbornTao Well, okay, I think I understand your position better now. And I don’t agree with it. But I don’t care to go over it anymore. Would be easier to discuss in person.

It’s good that we have diversity of perspective here though. Contrast is appreciated.

Edited 11 hours ago by Sincerity

[UnbornTao]

3 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

@UnbornTao Well, okay, I think I understand your position better now. And I don’t agree with it. But I don’t care to go over it anymore. Would be easier to discuss in person.

It’s good that we have diversity of perspective here though. Contrast is appreciated.

 Sure.

[Sincerity]

25 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

 Sure.

Engagement would definitely be easier if you replied to my arguments instead of linking me someone else’s response. 

But maybe you don’t care enough as well. That’s fine.

Edited 10 hours ago by Sincerity

[UnbornTao]

50 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

Engagement would definitely be easier if you replied to my arguments instead of linking me someone else’s response. 

But maybe you don’t care enough as well. That’s fine.

If you guys won't listen to Adi Da or Ralston, I see no reason why you'd listen to me. It's already been laid out multiple times, and yet people here continue to ignore it. I already said that experience is everything you're aware of, and this is the core point.

I wouldn't presume that the distinction of "consciousness" used by these guys is at all the same as how it's used by the rest of us - especially by believers in the psychedelic path. It's not an experience, nor cognition. But again, the unwillingness to hear this point is being proven time and time again. At best, it is framed as a "point of view" to appear charitable.

It would be wise to listen, Leo included. But I've given up on this point.

Edited 9 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Eskilon]

@UnbornTao Preach

[Sincerity]

@UnbornTao I’d be more interested to hear how YOU came to these conclusions yourself. Instead of referring to your authority figures and what they said.

Did you derive it yourself? If so, based on what? Sharing your thought process would be nice (because what you have is indeed a belief system that you’re insisting on).

Edited 5 hours ago by Sincerity

[UnbornTao]

2 hours ago, Sincerity said:

@UnbornTao I’d be more interested to hear how YOU came to these conclusions yourself. Instead of referring to your authority figures and what they said.

Did you derive it yourself? If so, based on what? Sharing your thought process would be nice (because what you have is indeed a belief system that you’re insisting on).

Jesus, what a waste of time. Whatever is said here that contradicts the shared fantasy will be ignored.

Edited 3 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Sincerity]

29 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Jesus, what a waste of time. Whatever is said on this will be ignored.

Is it some outlandish concept to explain how you arrived at your conclusions? What you’re basing your understanding on? Besides „Ralston told me”?

I’d have no problem explaining to you of how I got to my current understanding. And it’s not „I believe it because Leo said so”. 

Like come on, this isn’t serious.

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Sincerity said:

Is it some outlandish concept to explain how you arrived at your conclusions? What you’re basing your understanding on? Besides „Ralston told me”?

I’d have no problem explaining to you of how I got to my current understanding. And it’s not „I believe it because Leo said so”. 

Like come on, this isn’t serious.

Go over my past responses. Again, this has already been said. But it's clear there's no real willingness to hear it, so don't pretend there is.

One also derives their own beliefs and delusions. This excuse is really insubstantial when the realness of the subject being derived is what's in question. It is neither bulletproof nor what you think it is in this context. If it's real and genuine, then that could be called a solid realization.

For what it's worth, I too derived my "awakenings" from my breakthrough trips, and later found - after some serious reflection and honesty - that they were experiences, and that that's what the drugs do. But to do this you have to confront the reality of the situation, and face discouragement and whatever else comes up when a fantasy is given up. You have to leave space for enlightenment to be something other than an experience or state shift.

I derived from myself that drugs alter your state, by the way. To recognize that, you have to set wishful thinking aside.

Edited 19 minutes ago by UnbornTao

[Sincerity]

@UnbornTao Uh huh. Okay, nevermind. 🤷‍♂️

[UnbornTao]

40 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

@UnbornTao Uh huh. Okay, nevermind. 🤷‍♂️

Sorry, I realized I fell into this discussion again. I should have learned by now. 

[Sincerity]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

I also derived my "awakenings" myself from my breakthrough trips, and then found - after some reflection and honesty - that they were experiences. That's what the drugs do. I "derived from myself" that this endeavor is based on wishful thinking. 

I see you added this just now, so I'll respond: literally every moment can be considered "an experience". This is something I said earlier which you didn't respond to. There's not a single moment where you're not in some sort of state and not being "in an experience". It's not just "what drugs do", it's every moment.

I myself don't think in terms of "experiences" - that's a concept you keep insisting on (which to me is completely meaningless), and I'm wondering how you derived a bias against it. Considering what I said above.

Edited 2 hours ago by Sincerity

[Sincerity]

3 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

I see you added this just now, so I'll respond: literally every moment can be considered "an experience". This is something I said earlier which you didn't respond to. There's not a single moment where you're not in some sort of state and not being "in an experience". It's not just "what drugs do", it's every moment.

I myself don't think in terms of "experiences" - that's a concept you keep insisting on (which to me is completely meaningless), and I'm wondering how you derived a bias against it. Considering what I said above.

On a side note, this is the exact standard argument that "normies" have against growing understanding with the assistance of psychedelics.

"It's just a hallucination bro! Just an experience! It doesn't matter, because the true reality is actually when you're not on a psychedelic! My standard daily state is the "correct" state, the only one from which truth can be assessed from! Why? Because it just is, okay? Just trust me!"

This is literally the default position when you're not questioning it deeply enough. Again, state is inescapable. You are always in a state. The argument that you see reality in the clearest way from your daily baseline and all else is "an experience" is preposterous. 

[UnbornTao]

Let's give it another shot, then. 

1 hour ago, Sincerity said:

I see you added this just now, so I'll respond: literally every moment can be considered "an experience". This is something I said earlier which you didn't respond to. There's not a single moment where you're not in some sort of state and not being "in an experience". It's not just "what drugs do", it's every moment.

Yes. Never said otherwise. I said that everything you're aware of is your experience. That's why it was said that "it's not IT." Whether you're drunk, bored, or blissed out, this is still an experience and is not the same as enlightenment. 

Let's create some space around the notion of enlightenment. Without this space, this conflation will continue to be made unknowingly.

Quote

I myself don't think in terms of "experiences" - that's a concept you keep insisting on, and I'm wondering how you derived a bias against it. Considering what I said above.

It's the other way around. We can say that experience precedes concept, although experience can be heavily influenced by concept. 

It's not a bias against it, it's calling it what it is. I enjoyed the trips. But they're not true. Taking a bunch of substances and pretending this is the same as seeking the truth is what bothers me. 

Edited 1 hour ago by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

26 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

On a side note, this is the exact standard argument that "normies" have against growing understanding with the assistance of psychedelics.

"It's just a hallucination bro! Just an experience! It doesn't matter, because the true reality is actually when you're not on a psychedelic! My standard daily state is the "correct" state, the only one from which truth can be assessed from! Why? Because it just is, okay? Just trust me!"

This is literally the default position when you're not questioning it deeply enough. Again, state is inescapable. You are always in a state. The argument that you see reality in the clearest way from your daily baseline and all else is "an experience" is preposterous. 

This is a basic misunderstanding of the argument being made. As a reminder, what's being said is that drugs can't and don't increase consciousness nor lead to the truth. As for healing potential, improving one's life, and similar matters - that's another story. One's everyday experience is no more "true" than an altered mind state. Hmm, don't read this the wrong way. This is mostly so others don't do stupid things and mentally make up something weird.

The assertion being made is this: an experience is an experience. When everything we have of reality is experience, what is enlightenment then?

I don't know what the point of this is anymore. Hopefully it creates some space for people. From there, after abandoning these beliefs, we can look into the matter with fresh eyes and more openness.

Edited 1 hour ago by UnbornTao

[Sincerity]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Whether you're drunk, bored, or blissed out, this is still an experience and is not the same as enlightenment.

Let's create some space around the notion of enlightenment. Without this space, this conflation will continue to be made unknowingly.

I don't have a reference point for "enlightenment", and I doubt you do. I won't speak about something I don't have experience in.

Though again: I reject the distinction of "an experience which is just this temporary futile thing" vs "a permanent enlightenment". Based on my best understanding, I believe that every experience affects you permanently, even to a small extent. My trips have affected me permanently. Literally every experience has. And regarding the "permanent enlightenment" - again, I won't comment.

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Taking a bunch of substances and pretending this is the same as seeking the truth is what bothers me. 

Define what seeking truth is to you then.

To me, seeking truth is an energetic choice. One that I can make, and have, many times in my life. It's not about any action in physical reality in particular (like "taking a substance"), it's simply what you are guided to do if you are indeed acting on that intention. In practice this can take many forms, and it can include meditating while on a substance.

From my experience, I am always effortlessly pushed towards doing a psychedelic trip at a particular time even when my rational mind is objecting to it. But when I see that effortless push arising in my mind, I recognize this energy for what it is and let it act through me. Because why would I block something that's light and effortless? And also, why would I insist on it? Both are incorrect. I simply have to let whatever wants to happen, happen.

And from acting on that intention, immense beauty always emerges. Clear insights and profound realizations. Ones that affect me for a long time.

This intention is not pushing me to only take psychedelics, of course. I can be guided by it throughout my entire day, every day. Whispering to you what's best for you to do at a given moment (I'm talking about the highest viable energy, NOT the path of least resistance). It's just letting Life guide you. What else to do but that? How else to arrive at truth?

52 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

The assertion being made is this: an experience is an experience. When everything we have of reality is experience, what is enlightenment then?

I don't know what "enlightenment" is referring to. I don't even know if it exists. But I've seen for myself that Experience is Absolute. That it's God. That literally everything taking place is God. Every interaction is with God. As God.

So an experience is not just an experience. Experience is God. That's what I've seen dozens of times from genuine beginner's mind, so that's my understanding. I won't speak about anything else until I see something else.

To be clear: I am open and I will let myself be guided to where the truth is. So far I was guided to what I mentioned above. These realizations have sunk quite deep into me now.

Edited 1 hour ago by Sincerity